Guess the grade # 3 1913 Quarter Eagle

nevermind

 

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coins with rub in MS holders? even 64s? maybe we are are getting ready for the term uncirculatedish we already have partial grading. maybe ms 100 will be next. IMHO coins with rub on them dont make it to MS holders at least they shouldnt doesnt mean they dont.

 

Uncirculatedish? By Jove Spock, I do believe you've "coined" a term......

 

Bravo! what a sad day i cant pick any holes in this thread. oh wait I got it. the coins are so tough to grade the TPG cant do it so now they have hired a computer

 

unfortunately thats what the TPG's want to do. That is when they are not trying to grade coins they cant read or attribute

do you think there is money to be made with the uncirculatedish patent?

 

I'm on it...

legalzoom.com

 

GDJMSP - There is really no need for a long explanation . You called a coin that was graded MS 64 and certified by CAC an Au 53 . I sincerely hope you are familiar with CAC and how tough they are when certifying gold . There are no Luster breaks caused by what you consider rub or ware , and it is very obvious from the picture that the coin is MS. I even posted a picture of an Au 55 coin for comparison. Either you are not familiar with grading this series of coin or maybe you are just back peddling because you were so far off on the grade. For those who want to get into another one of those TPG over grading a coin arguments , forget about it on this coin.

GDJ - Just for fun why don’t you grade these gold coins for me :

 

Oh dear.......

 

yes poor fellow doesnt realize even i listened to GD when it came to ohot grading he is still the best but i dont let him near indian coins


no matter which cac person told me what i would never spend a dime based on what they said and i have already spent more than 100k based on uncle GD;s photo skills. notice the pics i can see wear on the coins based on the pics ok gnight il catchthis tomorrow after grandpas response

 

Ok so what you are saying and I want to make sure I am really clear on this .

Based on a photo, you think someone can grade better then a TPG and CAC who have seen a coin in hand ?? I really need clarification on this as it will change my argument completely.

And lets not forget that Bill Sharmhart also saw this coin in hand and called it high end for the grade. If the coin was not CAC certified then one can argue from a photo that this coin could be over graded as it is their opinion VS my opinion.
However when you put CAC into the mix, then most the doubt is takent out of the equation.

The whole point of grading from a photo is basically a best guess . I could understand if someone were to come back with MS 62 on this coin based on a photo.
But Au 53 ??? My photo skills are intermediate at best but they are good enough that it should be obvious that this coin is far better then AU .

 

I understand where you are coming from . I know you realize that grading from a photo is at best a guess. Until they can make photos 3D so we can tilt them we have to rely on looking at the coin flat on.
I am not naïve to think that TPG's can not and do not overgrade. Anyone who says otherwise needs to sell all their coins and collect stamps.
As for CAC – probably 75 % of my coins are CAC certified. Based on experience I have a very high regard for them.
If you want to send me $ 2500 I will mail you this coin and let you look at it , you will probably not want to send it back

 

I was thinking 53 or 55. The cheek and jaw appear to be slightly worn, there are marks all over the fields that could be from circulation, the headdress looks distinctly discolored.

But... that's what *I* see in the picture, and that's all I have to go by. From that pic there is no way I'd pay BU money for that coin.

 

CAC is tough on gold. Out of the 15 or so gold Indians I have sent to CAC only 5 were certified. Some of the coins that were rejected were questionable because of a possible putty job and one other had questionable toning . All the coins submitted were MS 62 or better with the exception of a couple of Au examples.
Because I submitted this coin directly to CAC at a coin show I did have the opportunity to talk about it with Bill Shamhart. Bill was assisting John that day certifying the coins.
To clarify – J A has final say on all coins but because this was a busy coin show with limited time to grade he needed a second set of eyes. There were a few of my coins that were considered high end for the grade , this being one of them . I do not have the coin handy because I keep this one locked up at the bank but by memory the most outstanding feature on this coin is the amazing cartwheel luster. Grading is so subjective, I say MS 64 , you say Au , someone else say another thing. When it comes time to sell this coin I have no doubt it will get top dollar , not just because of the CAC green bean but because the coin is that good.
Will you be attending The Boston Fun show ?? If so I could bring the coin for you to see.
Post script – you remind me of my local dealer. Very conservative grader, almost to conservative if there is such a thing . He was the one who thought this one a MS 63 .

 

I once noted on this forum during a guess the grade thread that you could take Doug's guess, add one point to it, and get the TPG assigned grade correct almost all of the time.

You can call his grading conservative, but the difference really lies in the fact that Doug uses different standards that the TPG's. In essence, strict ANA grading standards are more conservative that TPG standards. I will give Doug credit, his grading consistency is phenomenal.

 

All things created equal , I will take the opinion of John Albanese over pretty much anyone. I wonder if this thread is going to morph into a people who like CAC and those who don’t. We can discuss and argue about this coin until the cows come home. The key and I am sure Doug will say this as well , his opinion on the coin is based on my photo. If the coin was sitting in front of him he would not grade it AU. CAC certified it as MS 64 . One reason CAC was formed was to weed out the properly graded coins from those that are not. Will anyone here say that CAC does not adhere to strict ANA standards of grading ? I am not a novice collector and you know me from the NGC boards. I will admit I am not at the level of someone such as Doug when it comes to grading, but I usually come very close when grading a coin.

 

Mark,

I am not sure you understood my point. I am a huge advocate of the CAC. I have been since it's inception. I also would take JA's grading opinion over just about anybody's. However, the CAC does not adhere to strict ANA standards of grading. The CAC uses the same market grading principles that the TPG's use. Lest you forget, it was John Albanese who was one of the original founders of PCGS who left and founded NGC.

I don't think your numismatic knowledge is being questioned at all here. Doug applies strict ANA grading standards which basically state that if a coin shows wear, it is not mint state. You just can't expect two different sources using different standards to agree. Furthermore, I believe that Doug did admit that his evaluation of the coin was based on what he sees in the images posted. To me that means he reserves the right to change his mind if he saw the coin in hand.

In the end, the coin is an MS64 based on current TPG standards and AU based on ANA standards. I don't think that is a condemnation of either the coin or your grading abilities. My original response was to clarify and make things better. I hope I have not stirred the pot and made things worse. If I have, please accept my apology.

 

Gee Leigh you did not have to apologize to me .:smile
I understand your point on the matter now as you have clarified it for me.
Nothing wrong with a little pot stirring from time to time .