1816 Large cent with wrong rotation (from front to back)

Hi all, here is my next question. I have this 1816 large cent and the rotation from the front to back is wrong. While they of course are usually 180 degree rotation (flipping the coin straight up and down would make the coin right side up), this one is more of a 90 degree angle, actually a bit less. Sorry for the confusing description, I'm sure there are proper terms for this. Is this a common error and any idea on value? Thanks, Scott.

 

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It's called a rotated reverse, and it's not uncommon on 19th century coinage. It does command a premium, but I don't know how much.

 

Great looking coin

 

Thanks se-collectibles for the info and thank you mpcusa for the compliment. I actually found this coin metal detecting about a year ago in the same hole as a 1817 LC in similar condition, the only difference being that the reverse of the '17 is not as sharp. Kind of a rougher, duller look to it. I'm assuming the '17 was sitting on top of the '16 with the reverse facing up towards the elements. I'll actually post a pic right now of that one. Anybody have thoughts on what you would grade these coins? I have alot to learn about grading and coins in general. Anyway, thanks, Scott.

 

I would love to see a clear picture of the date itself on the 1816 piece. Magnified as much as you can keeping it clear.

Thanks,
Bill

 

Hi Foundinrolls, here is a pic, not perfect but the best I can do with my photography skills. Since I originally made this post I've taken a closer look at this coin and was also curious about the date. I've drawn a couple of arrows at the strange looking parts. It looks like doubling but you would probably be a better judge of that. Take a look and let me know what you think. Take care, Scott.

 

Scott,

That is a very interesting piece, and a find! Amazing! There does appear to be a potential over date? I will let the experts decide that as I am not aware of any known currently.

Regards,
Stan

 

Nice piece!! And that was metal detecting? Great shape for that too...
It does look to be a over date.

You say you dug that up a year ago well you might want to make sure your holders are not PVC as there is some green in her hair that will ruin that coin.

Where do you go detecting? I'd like to go

 

WOW, copper does not usually come out of the ground looking that nice, especally copper that time period. Spectacular find! I don't know enough about cents from that time to be able to help you more, sorry!

 

This looks like a 1816 N-2. The recut 1 and 'dashes' are part of the attribution points for the obverse along with poorly formed
letters in LIBERTY and the rim crumbling at stars 9-10 which is NOT POST MINT DAMAGE identifying it as Obverse 1.

The Reverse has a recut left foot of N in ONE to identify it as Reverse B.

The N-2 is noted as frequently being found rotated.

 

That is a sharp looking coin for something that came out of the ground after all that time buried.

 

Get somebody familiar with varieties to help you with the 1817. The obverse looks like Obverse 1 with it's open mouth, but the Reverse does not look like any of the 1817 Reverses with the point of the leaf under the D under the right upright of the D. There are a couple in 1816 which come close (Reverse B or F of 1816?). If this is not a mistake in pairing your photographs, then it COULD be a new variety or it COULD indicate a counterfeits were used to salt your metal detector site.

Reverse B of 1816 and 1817 are the same, but the leaf tip is further right of the upright than the subject and the N seems thinner and leans further left to me. Don't trust me, I see things that aren't there, but it's worth getting help.

 

The break running down from the center dot between E and N in CENT is intriguing.

 

I've circled the area which doesn't fit.

 

After further work, I think it is a Reverse B from 1817 after all. The leaf at D isn't as close to the right side of the upright as I originally thought and the die crack at the first S in STATES (see arrows) appears to confirm the Reverse B making this the 1817 N-2.





The subject coin is probably an earlier die state struck before the clash towards the top right of the E in ONE occurs.

 

You may not know coins well,but at least we know you have some cents Nice finds

 

Thank you Marshall for sharing your knowledge on these coins. They don't usually come out of the ground like this. I've definately posted the correct fronts and backs together. This site is an old cellar hole and these coins were actually found quite a ways away from the foundation itself. Do you have any thoughts on their condition and value? I'm going to post these on the "What's it worth?" forum and see what people think. Thanks again, Scott.

 

After looking at the 1816 coin and comparing it to other coins,and also comparing it to my own personal detecting finds,along with some knowledge on antiquities and aging.I would say that in the present condition.

I would net grade this coin to s VF35,and here is why.although the coin had a good strike,and did not suffer a high amount of circulation,as is noticeable by the wear,or the lack of it.ultimately it is a "dig" find,and chances are it sat in the dirt for many many years.maybe even 100+.the fact that is was underground,the dirt over time & the natural deposits,ate at the coin and reduced it total overall "mass",it did this very slowly and also it did it at an even pace.which has left it with a overall pleasant appearance, the dirt preserved the details very well,but by reducing the mass of the coin at a slow pace,that is why I would say it looks in the XF area but I would net grade it to a VF35 from the reduction,and the active corrosion on it.If it had been buried in sand,like a desert,it would have preserved,without losing as much "mass".but the majority of the U.S. has very rich deposits in dirt.If you compare to coins problem free coins of the same year,you will notice a "thicker" appearance.I hope this helps,and would love to hear others opinions.taking in the fact we do know a small amount of history behind the coin.Very nice find.

the 1817 I would say around 25+ with the deeper corrosion on the reverse

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It really depends on who is bidding on them. The details are sharp enough that some might grade it close to MS detail and the net grade is really affected more by surfaces than the fact that it was buried. The 1817 reverse will be more harshly graded due to it's more noticeable corrosion on the reverse. If you find a type collector that's only wanting to fill a hole in his type set, then the reverse might not be that important to him.

I would not be surprised to see it net out at XF40-XF50 on the 1816 and a split grade of XF/F for the 1817.

Maybe $200 for the 1816 and $100 for the 1817 RETAIL or 60-75% of that wholesale assuming they match their pictures in detail and surfaces aren't rougher than they appear. But I'm used to buying, not selling coins.

 

For what it's worth, I think you'll get lowballed until someone conserves it by the proper application of verdegone or similar product to remove the green. Green is poison to a seller, but make sure it's removed by someone knowledgable or the coins will be considered mutilated and greatly reduced in value.

NCS is a professional conservator and they charge around $25 a coin just to conserve it. Then a similar amount is charged if they forward it to NGC for grading. Both these fall just below a value most believe is justified for this service which is about $300.

Good Luck.