I had an ethical dilemma the other day and I'm curious to know where you all stand on it. First off, when selling a coin, if you don't represent the coin as what it is, and disclose all information about it, you're scum...slime...the lowest of the low. This thread isn't about selling coins. But when you're buying, when do you have a moral obligation to reveal what you're buying. If I was buying a coin that was a doubled die that I was familiar with, and the seller clearly didn't notice it, I feel that it is OK to buy it. Knowledge is power and you're paying their asking price for the coin in question. But sometimes there are shades of gray. The other day, I went into a coinshop that I've always suspected pays nowhere near top dollar. (see the rationalization? ) Anyway, they had a bunch of buffalo nickels in a pail for 75 cents each. I went through them, and didn't find anything nice, so I asked if they had anything better. The pulled out a bag with 5 buffalos in it. One of them was a 1917-D, but it was kind of corroded, dark, etc. Not a great coin, but I asked what they wanted for it because I needed it to plug the hole. The gal at the counter calls over this 20-something "kid" because he was their "coin person". He looks at it, and asks me what the mint mark is. My response was, "you tell me..you're the expert!". Then he asks me where to find the mintmark! So I tell him that it's on the back. He looks at it, and decides it is a "P" (not a "D"), and then looks up the value and says it is a Philidelphia mint version and offers it up for $3. What should I have done? What would you do? The law says that if he offers it to me for $3 and I accept it, I've done nothing illegal. And I know that there are lots of times in coin purchases where my knowledge gets me a deal. But is there a point where it is too much? I'm not talking about bilking old ladies out of their old coin collections through a classified ad in the paper here. I'm talking about not providing them with my "expertise" (though there was little needed in this situation). Steve
Uless it's a dealer I deal with on a regular basis I'd look at that like a cherrypick and be fine with it. It's their merchandise and they know what they have in it and what they need.
Here is my opinion since you asked. I think that if a professional, who is supposed to be an expert and value and look at coins everyday to make there living, misses a coin that they have for sell then it is there bad. Like you said, knowledge is power and if you have done your do=dillegance and the coin shop has not, that is there bad not yours. Isnt that what a "cherrypick" is all about. By definition, a cherrypick is when you buy a coin less than what it is worth becouse the person who owns that coin does not notice or know something important about that coin. Just so you know, by law, a contract is an offer, an acceptance, and a exchange of valuables. They made you an offer, you accepted and then gave them money for the coin. You did nothing wrong
I was at the coin store the other day. This guy came in wanting to sell a coin. I didn't see what it was. The dealer asked what he wanted for it. The guy said sixty dollars. The owner paid. After the guy left, the dealer showed his partner. They both got very excited. They couldn't believe they got the coin for 60 bucks. "That must be some coin." I said. "The guy wanted 60 bucks, he got 60 bucks," the dealer told me. Obviously the coin was worth a whole lot more than 60 dollars, but did the dealer tell this guy that? I wouldn't worry about buying ethics when dealers have no selling ethics.
That is how I suspect this shop is. But I think it's a whole different kettle of fish when it comes to dealers buying something versus customers cherrypicking. I think dealers have a moral obligation to offer a fair price, with some funds held back for profit margin and even a possible mistake from being off by a grade. But maybe thats me. I couldn't sleep at night offering someone 10 cents on the dollar or something like that. Steve
I doubt a 10% percentage of payment is possible. However I am comfortable with 25-40% so its up to the person. We dealers need to make a living as well. Were in it to survive and hopefully prosper. We do give deals though and generally are good people. If I ever heard of a dealer paying 10% I would defintely say theyre scammers not dealers.
Whenever I find a "cherrypick" from a dealer at a show or in a shop, I ask what the selling price is of the coin... then I pay that price w/o any attempt at negotiation. That way, I've asked and then I've paid exactly what they were asking and I have nothing to feel guilty about. On the other hand, if you "pick" a $100 coin and the dealer is asking $5 and then you offer them $3, then you should probably feel a little guilty, even though the dealer may take $3. Also, if you don't pay the full asking price, there's a shot the dealer will take a closer look at the coin before making the decision and may discover you're trying to rip him and you'll lose out. Paying the full asking price pretty much eliminates the chance the deal won't go through. All that said, if you deal with someone quite a bit and find an obvious pricing error, it should be disclosed. But picking through a bunch of stuff the dealer didn't take the time to sort themself is part of the fun of the hobby.
I wouldn't consider the employee "an expert" that didn't know where the mint mark on a buffalo nickel is located. But the store obviously empowered him to price and sell coins. Enjoy the coin.
I could relate to you numerous accounts where it is considerably less than that even. And by dealers that are considered to be reputable, not only by the public, but among their peers as well. As to the question asked - would go along with illini.
If you are asked to evaluate the value of coins and accept, either for a fee or for the opportunity to purchase, I think it is only right to give them the honest scoop. If they only want to know what you will offer them, then any offer is acceptable. If they get less than they could have, it's contempt of coin.
When you are buying from a dealer who holds himself out to be a dealer/expert, there is no moral or ethical issue with buying something for his asking price. However, if the 75 year old lady who lives next door shows you a box of uncirculated morgan dollars and offers them to you for $3 each, I think you have a moral obligation to inform her of the value and perhaps help her sell them for fair value.
you asked for a price, the "expert" gave you a price, you paid the price. Transaction complete, no need to fret about it for any reason, you did not attempt a scam or try to mislead.
would you feel any different if you were bidding on the coin on eBay if the seller described it wrong? How about if you were looking for 2 feathers and the buyer didn't mention because he didn't know. How much crap do you have to look at before you have interest in buying something?
Being as a seller or a buyer representing the coin fairly and knowing What your going to get is always the best policy!!
I have a story about a deal between me and another dealer. This dealer that I know personally had a proof Indian cent for sale on the internet with a decent photo. The coin had a tiny ding on the cheek but had very pretty toning and otherwise was a beautiful spot-free coin, so I made an offer. We went back and forth a little and finally settled on a price. As soon as I received the coin, I tossed it in my box because I was packing to leave for a show and I knew I would just give it to Todd to photograph since he was taking onsite photographs at the show. A few days later, Todd sent me the photograph, which was as usual very good quality and enlarged and he mentioned that the proof had a neat strike-thru on the cheek. I was quite surprised since I thought it was a ding, but sure enough, it was actually a strike-thru from a piece of thread. This is pretty unusual for a proof, and even though I thought it was very interesting and liked it, I wasn't sure whether it would add or detract value. I went ahead and posted it on my website for sale noting the very interesting "error" and added a premium to see if it would get any attention (I could always lower the price if it didn't sell!). Within a day, the dealer I purchased it from sent me a message berating me for taking advantage of him, how dare I list the coin for that much more than I bought it for, stating that I knew the proof had a strike-thru and was worth a premium, yet I had the guts to still "dicker" with him for a better price, I was a unethical, etc. Boy, was I shocked and taken aback by his sharp message. I responded honestly, telling him I didn't even see that the coin had a strike-thru until after Todd photographed it and pointed it out to me, that I didn't even know whether it was worth a premium because most people who collect proofs prefer pristine examples. But I also told him, no matter whether it was worth a premium or not, if he made money and was happy with the deal, what did it really matter to him how much I sell the coin for. After a few more back and forth messages, and ultimately my phone call to him, he finally believed me, and then began apologizing profusely over and over for his "jumping to conclusions" without asking me first. The sad part is that, even though we are still friends, the experience has caused me to think twice before doing another deal with this dealer (mostly because his being a little "hotheaded" might have just as easily caused him to take his dissatisfaction publicly or directly to the message boards which could have harmed my reputation, so I am hesitant to enter into any other transactions with him since my reputation means a great deal to me). In any event, I have no problem if a dealer or collector "picks me off." As a matter of fact, I have several collectors and dealers who stop by my table looking for specific varieties on my Indian cents, repunched dates, dates in the denticles, etc., and I have no problem with this. I don't always take the time to look carefully and closely at each coin I purchase (especially circulated coins) and sometimes the varieties don't really add that much value. So if I make a little on the coin and am comfortable with the price, I'm happy. And often, I get educated because my customers and dealers usually tell me what they find (yes, of course it's AFTER I've given them my price!) but it honestly does not bother me because I received what I wanted, and they are even happier with their purchase and often return to look for more varieties. By the way, I posted that proof on the message boards to solicit opinions as to whether the strike-thru added or lowered the value, and many felt that the strike-thru detracted from the proof, and made it worth even less. However, I did end up selling it to a customer who loves errors like this, and was thrilled to see it on the proof - he said "it turned him on"!! So, to each their own. :smile
Sounds like the dealer shot himself in the foot on more than one level. If a buyer does cherry pick you, the best thing you can do about it is just try to forget about it. Otherwise, you could lose a valuable customer, which translates to future revenue. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! Steve
One small comment. A "meeting of the minds" is also required. In the original case the buyer knew it was a 17-D, the seller thought it was a 17-P. Technically there was no meeting of the minds. Now for something of this low a value no one is gong to care that much, but for a major difference in value it, enough to make it worthwhile to take to court, the contract would probably be overturned on those grounds.
