Toned Copper Coins restrictricted to MS65?

Hey all,

Set me straight here. Last night I was reading a 2-year old coin magazine. I was reading some grading standards...I think they were ANA. Anyway, it said that if a copper coin is toned, the highest grade it can receive is an MS65.

Huh? Is that true of PCGS, ANACs, NGC, etc?

I ask because I was just looking closely the other night at 1909VDB cent that I have. The surface looks like it could be MS66 or MS67, but what attracts me to the coin is that it is taking on some light neon green and pink toning. So that means its an MS65??? That has to be wrong. So if I have a beautifully toned copper coin with MS68 surfaces, it's an MS65? That has to be wrong, yes?

Steve

 

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I would think toning would add to the value not detract??

 

No this is not true.
I've owned many toned NGC, PCGS, and ANACS MS-66 Brown copper coins even a large cent PCGS MS-66 Chocolate BN. I've had PCGS MS-66,65 Indian Cents with BN designations - some were brown, some blue, green and purple toned. Many Proof Indians are in PR-66 & 67 BN holders.

Now a 1-cent coin in a PCGS MS-66 that is BN or toned IMO has to be good, and I mean good, jaw dropping good or they won't give it a 66.
It must be original out of this world. I get the feeling they don't really like to do it but it's just a feeling cause you don't see a great number of these and of course there is not a great number period.

 

Well, it is not a 68, but this one proves that they are not limited to 65;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370349220118&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

And I am not sure how "toned" they have to be, but this one is even higher;
http://www.cointalk.com/t97925/

 

Most of Charmy's are toned and several of them are >65.

http://www.thepennylady.com/charmyscollection.html

 

Well I promise I'm not making that up. But specifically, I read this as an excerpt to the ANA grading guidelines. Anyone have the ANA grading standards as a cross-check?

Thanks for all that have replied.

 

Closest I found was this which is from NGC(official grading company of the ANA). It states that toned coins can get a higher grade by virtue of their eye appeal.

http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading-guide/Grading-Lincoln-Cents.aspx

 

My Lincoln collection includes a 1938-D that is NGC graded MS67R. In all my years of collecting I have never seen a comparable copper. It is an even, smooth, intense violet with no imperfections or gap in the color. Truly an amazing lowly penny!

 

Most small copper I see marked 65 BN could easily be placed in a 66 holder but the TPG are rather reserved to do so. Take a minute to review the small population reports for these coins. For that mater, many 64s belong in a 65 holder but they just don't get the respect that the RB or RDs get. Even more confusing is the price guides that fail to accurately catagorize these beautiful coins and a check of auction results will reveal prices that are multiples of any guide. Although it is difficult to have a raw coin graded 65 BN it is possible but in my oppinion usually better money spent to buy one certified already if offered for sale. I personally can appreciate a nice high grade RD or RB but I find them a little boring. Give me a nice toned gem anyday, and if you are bidding against me in an auction sorry for you.

 

Here we go...January 2008 issue of Coin Prices. Page 10 & 11. No author name. The article is ANA grading standards and the first sentence states that the grades listed in Coin Prices is based on ANA Grading standards...blah, blah, blah

Under the definition for Uncirculated coins, it states that "Except for copper coins, the presence or absence of light toning does not affect the uncirculated coins grade..."

Later on, they start discussing grades by coin type. They have this paragraph:
"Copper and bronze coins: To qualify as MS-70, a copper or bronze coin must have its full luster and natural surface color, and may not be toned brown, olive, or any other color. (Coins with toned surfaces that are otherwise perfect should be described as MS-65 rather than MS-67)(sic)"...I think they mean "ms70...but it says ms67

Next paragraph for MS-67 says "This refers to a coin that is midway between MS-70 and MS-65. The coin may be either brilliant or toned (except for a copper coin, for which a toned piece should be described as MS-65".

See what I mean? Are they pulling these from the ANA standards? This must be something they are making up for themselves.

Steve

 

Here is photographic evidence that it is not true for NGC graded coins.

 

I have several 66RB coins and even a couple of 66BNs... I've also seen many 67RBs and even a couple 67BNs... here's my favorite 66RB that I have:

 

Thanks to all this was a good thread, very good!!!
Just what folks need to learn and not easily forgotten when pieced out like this, very nice!

 

Very, very interesting thought here. There are lots of coins that have a ridiculous price jump when they go from MS64 to MS65. I wonder if one could anticipate that the standards will someday relax for our chocolate friends and start hoarding the MS64 browns. Or will they have to keep this standard forever in the face of what some (Ok...just me) think is wrong?

Why is it wrong? There is already a marketplace differential for red cents versus brown cents, right? So if you have a "barely makes it slabbed MS65red", then it will probably have more contact marks than a shot 64 brown? Are you kidding me? Its essentially penalizing the brown coin twice by putting brown on the holder and giving it a lower grade.

Ask yourself this: Can you imagine if non-full step nickels were graded tougher just because they didn't have the full steps? Might not be the best example because a strong strike is needed to make a coin a '65, but you get my point, right? Sorry...your mercury dime is graded lower than it actually appears because it doesn't have full bands.

Ok...I get that appearance does affect grade, but it seems like double accounting to me. I'm going to look for some of that smooth chocolate and set my alarm for 20 years from now.

Steve

 

You have some good points and yes, they are penalizing BN coins but that is the market in copper. Does seem a little "too far" I have always thought as you must.
There are many bargins in 65, 66 BN coins, have been for the past 10 years but there are reasons. If you think you might need to sell in just a few years you should pass on the higher graded BN, but if pretty sure you want it for your collection they are a good choice. You can get sort of beat up on common dates/mints higher graded BN's in the short run though as far as return goes if not careful.

One tactic I have used and it can work for getting these cheaper is this:
If at shops or shows you go to on a regular basis and you spot a 66 BN copper coin you want. Just look at it and bargin a bit then pass on it. Watch to see if it's there week to week, month to month. If there after awhile and still not sold offer again and wait till the price goes down some.
If it's not selling the dealer may make you a very good offer at some point.

Learn to wait for good coins and/or there will be others!

 

I agree with GDJMSP that the population for Brown copper will eventually grow. I would speculate on enviromental conditions but I only have to look at the older series of large cents to see how many reds remain. I think it is a matter of time, no matter how much collecters protect their stock that the mint red will fade. It could take lifetimes so the evaporated equity will be overshadowed by inflation so no worry there. Its the spot appearing on Lincolns nose that is my bigger worry! Ha Ha

With that said, It is a wonderful time to collect BN copper. I like to think that even though a coin can tone in as little as a few minutes intentionally that the heart throbbing rich unintentional toning that high grade BN coins possess is really the prise of Time. I mean, I don't think anybody in 1909 was able to collect a gorgously toned Lincoln cent and that 100 years later it is an exciting time for collecting these gems. In another 100 will they be everywhere? maybe.

As far as the TPG technical grade I can only tell you from experience owning over 20 65s and 5/ 66s with color aside that the mint luster is just as dazzeling and that viewed under 10X you can count the same amount of nicks and hits, sometimes even more. I own 64s that blow away some of my 65s and belong in the same company as the 5s and 6s. I saw a 66 at FUN that could have been in a three holder with the lam error on a focal point(mintmade ? gets a pass for that?) and dicolord (oil?)spot so who knows sometimes. With the low pop for 65BN + available sometimes I resort to rubmitting raw coins to be graded BN specifically for my registry set. I see alot of raw BN Lincolns traded raw because I feel most dealers don't feel it is worth submitting it in cost and that thay assume that a coin of color will get body bagged. As my set grows so does the experience and learning what colors are "right" make it very fun for me right now. I conclude that as I try to build a MS collection of early date Lincoln in BN there will be mainly 65s, and a few 66s and a few 64s and that they all represent an even technical bandwidth for a well matched set. Just my opinion though. Some of my coins are newly listed with photos on NGC registry 1909-1933 #17 at the moment/coppermania.

 

Here is one for ya. HA.com has a 1920 D in 66 BN offered right now. The coin has a decent size spot on the lapel and several tiny hits and each side of the coin is differently toned. Very generous grade. 64? 65? but no 6 IMO.