CAC Results

Well first - I think that is great and I wish something like that was offered around here. There have only been a couple on this board that have attended this seminar - you could probably search for at least one thread that I recall where they wrote about there experience. I think what Doug is saying is that we all need more work on our grading. At the same time as Doug mentioned it is also a reflection on the tpg's. The reason for my questions were to find out what you thought. My personal opinion is that even though some of the coins did not sticker does not mean they are not nice coins. I honestly admit that some of my coins would not sticker - but I would still keep them in my collection. One of these days I might try this.

I think you are going to learn a lot down there and will be a good experience. I hope you after your trip you write about it and let us know more.

Thanks

 

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Just a novices question, but what I wonder is wether CAC would sticker self slabbed coins?

 

Doug,

While I agree with your overall point, I feel it necessary to nit pick for a moment. The failure of a coin to sticker says very little about the grading ability of the TPG's. After all, John Albanese has stated publicly that just because a coin does not get a sticker does not mean it is overgraded, it simply means that it is low end for the grade. The quoted passage below comes directly from the CAC website:

It amazes that every time this topic arises, so do the same old lame one liners about the CAC. Every collector I know recognizes that not all coins of a given grade are created equal. Essentially, everyone admits that there are grades within a grade. The CAC provides an opinion about those grades within the grade. It is not really a second opinion at all. Yet many of these same collectors slam the CAC and the TPG's and curse them as unnecessary evils in the world of Numismatics.

From my experience, very few collectors have the requisite grading abilities to consistently come within one grade of the grades assigned by the TPG much less be able to discern grades within a grade. These same collectors constantly brag about what a great deal they got on their latest acquisition which by the use of their superior negotiating skills acquired for less than wholesale. It never occurs to them that the reason the coin was so cheap was because it was low end for the grade. That is not to say one can't get a good deal on a coin. But when one gets a good deal on every coin, that collection is bound to be comprised of lesser quality coins that will not meet the standards of the CAC. There will always be collectors who think the CAC sticker raised the price of the coin. I think those coins were worth more before and after JA put his sticker on the slab.

I support the CAC because they provide a valuable service and allow collectors (including myself) to bid comfortably on auction lots sight unseen viewing only photographs. Try grading this one from a photo!

 

Just an observation, but at a few major shows I have attended I see several dealers that only have CAC stickered coins offered for sale. I'm sure you have seen the vast rows of coins covering tables that are all stickered green. I wonder about how hard it is to get a slab stickered when I see this and it makes me a little nervous. Can there be that many great coins that a dealers inventory can trade exclusively in these products. The only sticker that matters to me is the Eagle Eye sticker. I'll go out on a limb here and say its not that tough to reasonably grade a coin if one narrows focus in a certain area. It would be a stretch in my opinion for anyone to be considered an expert in dozens of types and denominations of gold, a hundred different series of silver, Large and small copper etc. If a person comes to the foreground, lets say after writing at least one book and stands up as an expert of a series and wants to make a sticker for that set of coins, I would respect that a little more than a person saying I know it all about everything all the time.

 

We is the Coin collector community .
And I do not rank or classified member that just wrong in my mind.
I think to everyone as an equal and everyone can have an opinion.and each member should respect the other members opinion.

 

there no right way to answer the point you think I missed.this is what only safe thing to stay without inflaming this more.

The coin collector community has said there is a need for CAC. till the community see there no need for 3rd party service CAC will be up and running.
the end.

 

If you slab the coins then you "know how to grade". I've submitted several tests to see how consistent the TPGs are. I consistently get coins regraded higher, Successfully crosover coins and even have had body bagged coins certify and then regraded. This only tells me the TPG have POWER, not a flawless ability to grade.

 

I'll agree to that. Just waiting now for another company to out do the CAC

 

Nice half!

I'm supportive of the TPGs and CAC because I also believe they provide a valuable service. I don't see the point in bashing them; if you prefer raw coins, buy raw coins. However, I have to question the idea that, in all cases, the coins that fetch a premium would have done so without a CAC sticker. Of course many would. But I see, at least on Heritage, many coins that IMO have mediocre eye appeal yet fetch premiums of 30% to 60% (and sometimes more) seemingly because they have the sticker.

I'm curious, do others come across CAC coins that you would judge as being just average? And if it's a matter of a technical grade, what does that matter if the coin has limited eye appeal? (I'm thinking, for example, of CAC MS65 V nickels or Shields that have carbon spots or junk on the surface or questionable toning).

 

Fellow old timers....:hail:

Remember these:

G
VG
F
VF
EF
UNC

:bigeyes:

 

To clarify my intitial post, I do not believe that every CAC coin that fetches a premium would have done so without the sticker. I also don't think that the CAC sticker will automatically drive a premium. From my experience with higher level coins in an auction format, the cream rises to the top. The coins are evaluated by the bidders on their merits, not solely on the TPG grade or CAC sticker. Many of the bidders are dealers and have excellent grading skills of their own. The coins that drive premiums are coins with outstaning eye appeal and quality for the assigned grade. Without both, you can expect the coin to perform near the wholesale level.

While I have not conducted a statistical analysis of previous auction prices, I would bet that most of the CAC coins drove a premium over wholesale. I would also bet that a large majority of these CAC coins that realized a premium had above average eye appeal. On the other hand, the CAC will sticker coins that have excellent surfaces and strike but are lacking in luster and eye appeal. While technically, these coins are good for the grade and deserving of a sticker, they usually under perform in an auction setting.

If you are seeing these coins sell for 30-60% premiums, then I submit that there are foolish collectors blindly paying a premium without a full understanding of coin grading. The other scenario is that you have dealers who are buying CAC coins exclusively at a premium and using marketing gimmicks to sell them at even higher premiums in a retail setting. They will sell these coins to the same foolish collector base that will blindly pay premiums without fully understanding grading. Unfortunately, we must accept that there are some in the business that will jump at the opportunity to exploit others for financial gain.

My problem is that I am not in a position to refute your claim that 30-60% of the unappealing CAC coins still sell for significant premiums. My collection revolves around eye appeal and those are the only coins that I track and watch. Maybe if we could work out an interesting wager, I would be motivated to research the issue.

 

Yup......the way it is going....the people who can not grade....want a stickered sticker for the slabbed slab at MS 65.54321

 

I would guess the same thing. Wish I had their money to throw around.

My collection also revolves around eye appeal. As for "unappealing CAC coins selling for a significant premium," I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder (but not necessarily in the holder), so my claim is rather meaningless. It just seems that way to me. It would be interesting to find out what the real percentages are, but I'm not a betting man!

 

Remember the lame one liners I referred to earlier, there ya go!

Here is my response to your one liner. This is from a previous post in previous thread about the CAC.

And then we will need a sticker for the sticker, where does it end? With respect, this complaint is ludicrous. TPG grades are only as good as the consumer confidence that accompanies them. While the grades assigned by PCGS & NGC are widely accepted, there exists a void when it comes to quality within a specific mint state grade. The TPG’s have known this and ignored it for years. That void was filled by John Albanese, the founder of the CAC. The success of the CAC is depends upon consumer confidence just like the TPG’s with one inclusion. Because the grades assigned by the TPG’s are accepted as professional opinions, only someone with a higher level of grading expertise would be able to offer an opinion that is accepted by the general public. John Albanese is widely accepted in the numismatic community as one of the best graders in the world. In order to have a sticker for the sticker, you would need to find someone who is widely recognized as a better grader than JA. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

http://www.cointalk.com/t94518-2/

 

Great toning on the reverse

 

A classic example of WHERE WILL IT ALL END......you talk of a grade within a grade........just go to 100 point system....then in 5 years it will be 100 with 2 decimal places...then 3 etc...it is human nature to attempt to split hairs....and for the record.....no human opinion is correct 100 percent of the time...........and just how many does JA actually look at?

 

I gave you the reason why it will end with the CAC and you simply chose to ignore it. Almost since the inception of the TPG's there has been the A,B,C grade within a grade. Being able to discern the difference has always been the mark of the advanced collector/investor. The CAC helps collectors without expert grading knowledge make more informed decisions regarding their numismatic purchases.

I do agree that it is human nature to split hairs. Your post is evidence of that.