CoinTalk's BEST CENT GRADERS (from pics)-3

Round 2 summary. Tight grouping among those who dared to offer a grade. We also now have two new players with our four pick minimum who have de-throwned the standing champ Duke. Duke now stands in copperville (3rd place).

Winners: Two tied for first with an average of 2.5 points off actual pcgs grade. Shoe (way to go ol' HA winner, you've come a long way) & Louie two bits.

HA: Split three ways,, I guess the rump roast will need to be cut up. Bad thad, Rlm's cent and bgcoins.... actually ya'll did pretty good, averaging 3.5 points off actual pcgs grades.

Also, after 10 picks, we'll drop your worst pick, after twenty, your worst two picks, etc.....

Here are the current rankings for those with the minimum posted estimates:
GOLD - MPCUSA 1.60
SILVER -
LOUIE TWO BITS 1.75
COPPER -
DUKE KAVANAGH 2.00
BRONZ -
BADTHAD 3.00
the middler's:
RLM'S CENT 3.67
.
BGCOINS 4.25
.
MARK H 4.63
.
SHAWN153 4.75
.
ABE 5.50
.
MIKENOODLE 5.71
now the pits:
BULLY 6.25
.
BORGOVAN 8.75
.
GDJMSP 9.17

and those with less than the min number of picks to be officially graded:
LDHAIR 0.00
CANERCOINS 1.00
SHOEWRECKY 5.00
COPPERMANIA 5.50
PJH008 6.00
COPPERWIRED 7.67
SWEET WHEATZ 17.50
JON67 25.00

Now on to round 3 !

 

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and two more in this thread to be graded:

 

23-S AU-55 BN

13 MS-64 RD

26-D MS-64 RB

17-D MS-63 RB

I all fairness I think that posting coins that look like sliders in hand kind of skews the evaluation. Obviously no one can see luster from these pics, and that would be the primary determining factor when I am looking at a coin in that range.

 

23 a/u 58

13 ms 65

26 ms 63

17 ms 64


I would agree with the Noodle here, Since luster is something we cannot see in the
Pics and obviously affects the grade of the coin, Its more of a guestamation then
An informed one.

 

I agree,, seeing luster in coin under diffused lighting is very hard, but doable. It can be even harder when a coin is scanned into a picture. This is part of the intent of the thread,,,, ie - to allow the forum members to learn how to read pictures,,, in this case pics under diffused lighting.

So, in the name of learning,,,, here's a clue. Take a look at the 26d and note the reverse (I find that reading luster on a cent is best done by looking at the reverse).... this coin has some luster in hand. Now take a look at the 17d and the 23s, these coins do not have a high degree, or any notable luster. You can see a difference, or at least I can.
I can't really speak to the 13 because I have no other reds posted as a point of reference, however I can say as far as reds go, this one has marginal luster and although appearing to be a nice red, does lack that carwheel luster <hint>.

 

23-s ms 58
13-ms65
26-ms63
17-D ms63

 

23s - 63bn
13 - 65rd
26d - 64bn
17d - 64bn

 

AU58, MS64, MS62, AU58. That last one I could not tell what was going on around the ear.

 

23s -61
13 - 64
26d -64
17d -64

 

1923-S AU-55 Br. Tough year, but that is wear.

1913 MS63 R. Weak reverse.

1926-D MS-64 Rb.

1917-D MS63 Rb. A disaster date that TPG's will let slide...

 

23-s ms 55bn
13-ms65rd
26-ms64bn
17-D ms62bn

 

23-s: Au58
13: Ms65
26-d: Ms64
17-d: Ms64

 

My point is that although pictures may give us clues as to luster, the quality of the pictures will have a huge impact on the perceived grade. This is why there is no substitute for examining a coin in hand and judging pictures is largely a crap shoot when it comes to the uncirculated grades.

Were your grading contest to include a large amount of coins in circulated grades, it would be a lot easier to trust the results. What I am finding here is that the most subtle part of Mint State coin grading (in this case the luster and color) are the most difficult parts of a picture to depict accurately. That basically leaves our grading ability as a direct product of your photography skills.

 

Indeed. MS coins are by far the most difficult coins to photograde....even with perfect pictures.

 

Sure they are harder to grade as the changes are less and less in MS.
But unless we are going to all meet at shows to practice then the only other option I see is to not participate. But I like this so I'll just keep trying to get better.

Thanks bahabully for taking the time to post these and do this.
I appreciate it and think I am learning from it.

Now what's the answers to this one

 

Duke,

While I agree that this IS a good exercise and it does provide a learning tool for all of those involved, my larger point was that this thread was on graders and grading and has almost exclusively been using MS coins.

MS coins are by far the hardest to grade from photos and my point was that the grades given will be a direct product of the photography.

If we were to include circulated grades or narrow the possibilities to MS grades only, this would make things quite different because if you can tell the difference between an AU-58 and an MS-63 from a photograph, then I don't need anyone to tell me that you're a far better grader than me, because I will admit it openly.

I pride myself on my grading ability and I welcome anyone who can teach me more. What I am finding a bit troubling is the range of grades being used. These grades are nearly impossible to tell from photographs and the accuracy of the grading will clearly be dependent in large part on the quality and consistency of the photography. It's like trying to find rust on an old car from 10 feet away, you can't be sure until you get a good look at it.

If you notice, I have submitted a grade for each coin, and in fact, if you look in the archives, I try to participate in almost every guess the grade thread. It's fun! I welcome this type of educational thread, I just wish that it was more empirical.

If you want to test our grading abilities that's good thing. Why don't you (bahabully) give a synopsis when you post the grades as to why it graded as it did, that will teach people more through this type of thread.

What I see right now is bahabully letting people give their opinions and then he critiques our grading abilities according to what the TPG said. They get the coins in hand, we get the pictures. That's great, but tell me why it graded MS-XX. Educate me when you post results. Otherwise you're just picking birds off of a wire with a pellet gun. There's no risk on your part of being wrong, corrected, or having to take a public stand without knowing if you're right; something every participant has done.

 

No arguments here.
It's the 3rd of his posts so who knows what grade coins will be comming.
I think it's all from his collection so I"m guessing he doesn't have to many lower grade cents but we'll see.
Plus there might be more types of coins coming too.

For those of us who can't make it to Summer Session by ANA this will have to do for our grading lessons though

 

A wider range of grades are coming.. patience. We'll have a nice sample size at the end. We're in the AU-MS range now, with a few exceptions tossed in. I will not let you know when we transition to other grades, and may also toss in an AU or MS when we get there to keep the random nature of the exercise in check. We will also transition to other TPG's, which I will note,,, I think that will be fun when we get to it, and really throw a monkey wrench in the game/exercise.

I would critique if I was good enough, I'm not, so I try to keep my ignorance under the sheet I've looked at these in hand, and on many I simply cannot tell the difference between an AU58 and MS62 or MS63 sometimes. There is variation in TPG's grading, even with the best ones... and I think this current range kinda demonstates that as well...
There will be coins you will see that I can point to provide an example of this,, if fact, there is one in this thread that leaves me scratching my head. I simply don't know enough about grading differences in this range to critique beyond what I usually use to grade at this level:
1 - obvious hits and wear....
2 - wear above the ear,,, which is hard to differentiate between strike and wear for my overused eyes.
3 - wear on the wheat ears, the lines and the seeds.
4 - luster, which in the case of diffused lighting pictures, tends to show as the amound of 'white' being reflected, or mixed in with the brown, on the reverse fields.

...this isn't math and there isn't a purist answer for each coin,, you can only offer a best guess based off pictures as to what someone "guessed" a coin graded in hand. It is ambigious and should be fun and done for the learing of it,,, over time, we should all be able to "dial in" a bit more than we did when we started,, and then apply our honed skill in various venues like ebay, heritage, etc..... Hopfully, it will give us an edge in identifying those blurry, fuzzy, diffused, scanned, pics we run across and maybe pick up a great deal or two because of it.

 

I think also with grading, people should whisper what they think the grade is instead of posting it on your thread. This way they cant see what other people posted which may persuade them to choose a different grade than what the person originally thought.. I definitely can't wait to see more grading variations and not just MS grades. This is helping me learn to properly grade and appreciate the effort and thoughts of everyone posting.

 

and you think we can from pictures???

My point was that you post, we grade, and everyone judges everyone... except you. If you offer an opinion from in-hand, then we can learn what you think as well, holding us all accountable.

you're right, but you're comparing our guesses to what the TPG said as if they are never wrong. That simply isn't the case. They misgrade coins as well. Now you're taking one opinion and measuring it against another, but you are lending the TPG (in this case PCGS although you have never stated that about these coins) infallibility. You're stating that the TPG grade is absolutely right when it may not be, and in all fairness they have had the coin in hand.

I love the discourse. I love the whole exercise. I just want you to understand that the TPGs opinion is, like ours, just that. An opinion. They are paid for their opinion, so you decide how credible they are. But also understand that we are not competing on a level playing field with them as far as grading.

I do understand the point here though, and I am not complaining. I think that the TPGs opinion is a good measuring stick, but should be disclosed which service and understood that grading from pictures can vary vastly. It should also be noted that at times, they are also inaccurate. When it comes to MS coins, missing a slight rub can cost you as much as 8 points in grading. This is what I think is the weakness in doing it from pics.

Your idea is to strengthen us all at grading from photos and I certainly hope that this series of threads will do exactly that. Keep posting these, but let's make it less of a contest and more of a classroom.