Coin Care Chemical

Fact or opinion? Make up your mind. Here is your previous comment;

BTW, since what you have posted is a conclusion, it cannot be a fact without any data to support it.

I have no idea even which side you are talking about. Both Thad and Doug have tried what they profess and I have no idea which one you consider "wealthy", don't even know what you definition of "wealthy" is, and, further, don't give a ___ who is or is not wealthy. I have no clue what wealth has to do with anything in this discussion and really do not care.

I have seen no one slammed, poked fun at, or belittled except by you.

They did and you did not (believe, that is).

Then show me some facts like they have.

A very apt description of your post.

 

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Well, I just have to chime in here a little. I've read through most of this thread, though not every word, but there is one area that I don't think has been touched on. Copper. Most of you know I specialize in copper and have been collecting and dealing in copper for close to 20 years. Copper is a porous metal and over time absorbs dirt, dust, grime, etc. It is my opinion that using an oily substance (Coin Care, Blue Ribbon, or even olive oil) not only helps to remove the dust and grime from circulated copper, but it also helps to condition old dried out circulated copper. I also sometimes use it on uncirculated brown copper if I feel it has that dried-out look.

I also use it on most of my circulated copper before I put them in 2x2 holders to make sure any possible "spit spots" are removed so that corrosion doesn't develop over time. Actually, I have a rag that I've used for this purpose (unwashed) for over 15 years to pat dry any excess Coin Care residue on copper and now I usually just use the rag without adding any additional Coin Care, unless the coin is really full of grime. Often, just using a little Coin Care or oily substance can remove light verdigris from copper which again is much better than leaving verdigris to grow and cause more damage to copper.

I understand there are different meanings in using the word "cleaning" when referring to coins. Some chemicals actually change the surface quality (whizzing or harsh brushing) or remove the original patina of a coin (dipping in a jewelry cleaner for example) - to me, that is inappropriate cleaning - it is comparable to refinishing antique furniture which devalues the piece often by half or more - the same is true for coins. However, using an oily substance that does not change the surface quality, causes no hairlines, and doesn't remove the original patina of a coin (or a piece of old furniture), in my opinion, is acceptable and is even helpful to a copper coin.

 

:rolling:

:rolling:

 

:goofer::rolling: I agree
GDJMSP & rlm's cents are right 999.999 % of the time! so read all they have posted,on this subject!

 

The essential word is "inappropriate".

The term "cleaning" has become so demonized that we fail to remember that some forms of cleaning are beneficial.

As Charmy and I mentioned above, the application of oil to copper is, in fact, standard operating procedure for many very strong people.

But don't take my word for it. Seek out the very top people in early American copper - the guys who write the books and the auction catalogs, the guys who have the very best collections in the world, and those who sell to them.

 

Doug, I understand you feel strongly about your position, but sometimes I feel like people who disagree with you are beating their heads up against a wall and can't even get you to see or consider a different point of view. The "problem" coins we see today aren't the ones that had oil applied to them - the ones we see as "cleaned" had their surfaces and patina altered with chemicals, wire brushes, pastes, etc. As you said, people have been putting oil on coins probably since the beginning of coins - and those coins are NOT the ones we see as damaged today. Let's just leave it that based on my actual experience, I kindly and firmly disagree with you.

 

:headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang::headbang:

As I have explained in the past..the method I describe works on copper pennies very well. Circulated copper pennies. I tried this method via suggestion of an experienced coin collector. It works. That's all I know. I can see fine Doug. I believe you are the one that is blinded by something.

 

i

You know Doug..I don't know what your issue is with this whole subject but these are the kinds of posts I am referring to when I talk about this topic.
I know...for a fact...lighter fluid works very well on circulated copper American cents. I could care less what is in it..I am not drinking it. You state that I can't see...blah, blah..blah...That seems to project that you have tried it, which I know darn well you haven't. So you belittle it.
I KNOW..I see CLEANED coins in the majority of dealers cases that constitute the majority of the displays. There ain't no way in hell that they all look that good on their own. That means they're cleaned. I, and other, just want to know how they do it..that's all. I doubt they sned them all out to conservation services. They do it in house. They do it every day. I want to know how. Instead...all I run into is this big cloud of secrecy, like some damn group of children protecting their secret treehouse location. It's quite ridiculous. To suggest otherwise is plain DISHONEST. It happens everyday. It happens to the majority of circulated/raw coins. It happens often. I want to know HOW it is done. I dion't want warnings about the perils and dasterdly effects of cleaning a coin "unprofessionally". I, and I gather, other, want to know HOW. I've exposed at least ONE method of doing so. I want others. Lighter fluid works...deal with it.

 

Doug isn't denying that everyone cleans coins... actually, from what I understand... He clearly said they DO CLEAN COINS.

Sure, lighter fluid makes the coin LOOK cleaner, and perhaps it IS cleaner... Being clean or not isn't the question here Tom, it's whether the cleaning is good for the coin or not. Does that make sense to you?

 

Charmy, copper is not porous, unless specifically manufactured as such ( and it is for certain purposes, but striking would destroy it). Any porosity is due to environmental activity on the new surface, and there is no way ( IMHO) to condition or alter the metal itself. The oil substance just covers the surface of the coin, and in some cases the corrosion material. Does it protect ? probably in the beginning, but eventually any kind of oil except maybe pure synthetic oil ( haven't seen much research on it ) will produce or absorb environmental gases. Not as much as water moisture, but more than the bare patina. Is it worth arguing over for circulated copper coins that already have damage ( from wear) on the surfaces~ probably not, but my opinion for what it is worth is that no oil is better.
Respectfully,

Jim
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Tom, there are people who clean or conserve their coins non abusively. Many have practiced hundreds or countless hours until they have arrived at this ability. In conservation, I have seen coins that had holes repaired, and if you didn't know yourself, could only be recognized by maybe a handful of people, but I doubt any body would admit even knowing their names, because then they would might bare the mark of a "doctor", even if they never did so themselves. And if they had the secret recipes similar to alchemy lore, they would consider them proprietary, and not divulge them.

If someone has a product that please them, then use it. Why continue to seek approval if you know it works? Peace.

Jim


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I am not sure which "lighter fluid" Tom is talking about and he did not take the opening I gave him to tie it into this thread. The last time I checked (years ago), the main ingredient in cigarette lighter fluid was toluene. See post #11.

 

Do you neutralize the oil with anything PennyLady?

 

I am looking at this thread from a different perspective. As a buyer. I am still a novice, but I am pumping some serious money back in my collection. Everyday I read the various post on this forum. heck, I even post a few threads my self. Now I am hearing that dealers intentionally clean coins. I know they knowingly buy cleaned coins, but then clean some them self? I feel like Gomer Pile here, but that kind of shocks me. Penny Lady, if I were to visit your table at a show, and I will in few weeks here in Big D, and ask you if the coin I want to buy has been cleaned, let a lone by you, does that offend you? Should I assume the price will reflect this? It's like I buy this coin at the show or coin shop which looks really nice because it was cleaned, but I don't know it. I get home put it in one of my Intercept albums and 1 year later it starts looking much different. Is that the possible consequence of this short term solution? Help me out here.

This is like a car dealer warming up the car before a test drive so it starts nice, but when I get home after buying it, it will not start that easily.

Also when I am looking at a coin, what's a sign that it may have been cleaned with oil, lighter fluid..whatever?

 

Wow, we really have some posts in this thread now. LOL

What Jim said is correct. The atoms in a metal are so tight there's no "porosity". However, I can see how a rough surface may appear to be porous to the layman but it's simply a matter of increased surface area. When a coin is oiled, it will fill those "voids" and give the surfaces a smoother appearance....however...it really is just an optical illusion.

Oil is definately good for cleaning because it's mixture of aromatic, short, medium and long-chain hydrocarbons.....depending on the distillation fraction. Really, I have no problem with conserving a coin with oil, but I firmly believe the oil should be completely removed after the operation is done.

 

not sure what you mean by "neutralize"? It's pretty much just oil, and contains nothing in my opinion that will mar the surface. In any event, I didn't post my comments here to "argue" about this topic, nor to defend my use of it - just to let you know my opinion about using it. Bottom line for me is, I use Coin Care and sometimes Blue Ribbon or olive oil, have used them for many years on circulated copper, am very happy with it, I feel it's good for circulated copper, and will continue to use it. End of story.

p.s. never heard of anyone using lighter fluid, so I have no comment on that.

pps. Texmech, I didn't see your post until after I responded. If you've read this entire thread, you will see there are different definitions of "cleaning" when it comes to coins. As I just mentioned, I use an oil substance to condition coins - in my opinion, it does not change the surface quality nor patina on copper. I do not use chemical to alter the surface or color of a coin whatsoever, never have, never will.

And I look carefully at coins and make my determination as to their originality before I decide to buy a coin. If I buy a group of coins and end up with one that has been "cleaned" - meaning that the surface has been altered or it no longer has original color, I will so state on the holder. I am not offended if anyone asks my opinion on whether a coin has been cleaned. I also have no qualms about telling my customers that I use Coin Care on copper.

In one way Doug and I are pretty similar - I am very open with any knowledge or experience I can share with my customers, again, always have been and always will be.

 

For once I have to disagree with you Jim. IMHO, there are only two actions: CLEANING AND CONSERVATION.

Cleaning is unacceptable in any form. It damages the coin and leaves tell-tail traces.

Conservation is market acceptable in that is leaves no trace or virtually no trace once it's done. Debris may be removed from the surface, but this does not constitute cleaning. NCS does this everyday....it is not any form of cleaning when done properly.

 

Thanks for your insight and input on this thread Charmy. Your comments were exactly what I was looking for to educate myself.

 

Maybe neutralize was a bad word. What I meant was do you remove the oil after you apply it using acetone or xylene?