Coin Care Chemical

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You 2 are saying the same thing if you could just say it in the same language. Yes, oils are hydrocarbons. However, they also "contain trace elements such as sulfur, phosphorus, chlorine, etc." When you oil the coin, these oils stay on the coin and eventually the trace elements start reacting with the coin. Xylene (toluene also), and acetone are also hydrocarbons (solvents), but they are not oils. They likely contain the same trace elements, but they are extremely volatile. When the coin is removed, these solvent evaporate (including the trace elements) leaving nothing to react with the coin Thad uses these solvents to remove any oils that may be on the coin.

 

Fair enough and we have respect and a good converse. The bonus is others have seen a good "for and against" and probably some collateral tips as well were learned.
Were all winners!

 

Oils ARE hydrocarbons! LOL I never said that they were not. The difference between oil and a solvent such as xylene is that oils are actually complex mixtures of MANY (as in hundreds) hydrocarbons. There in lies the problem. Most of the hydrocarbons in oil are what we call "long chain".....in layman's terms, they are big molecules. These big molecules are why oil has a higher viscosity than something like xylene. They are so large that most will not evaporate either (at normal temperatures), so with oil you have a selective evaporation over time. The short-chains will go first and the long-chains will go later. Over time, this will leave a tacky residue on the coin's surface.

The bottomline, I agree with you on using oil on coins. LOLOLOL

 

Actually, acetone is not technically a hydrocarbon because it contains an oxygen atom on the molecule. It's a ketone......sorry to nitpick, but I like to make sure people use the correct terms.

Solvents like acetone would (at best) contain extremely low levels of trace elements. It's nothing like oil in it's ability to attract and hold elements like sulfur. Addtionally, sulfur is omni-present in oil because it's present when it's removed from the source (land, sea, wherever) and during processing. It's virtually impossible and economically unfeasible to remove every last trace of sulfur from oil. You can get it low, but not to zero.

I'm glad you understand though! Nice job! :thumb:

 

There they Blowwww!!!! If I were to use oil ( hydrocarbons) on coins, I would only use the best clock oil. It doesn't gum and is near the top of the fractionalization column Tick-Tock's Coin Lube.

Jim

 

Many moons ago I posted a thread about Blue Ribbon. I was somewhat bashed for the thread but got over it. This was BEFORE I worked in a shop. I'll also note it was the only "cleaner" I had ever really seen in local shops.

Now I work in a shop. Coins are cleaned and often for the reasons Ben has mentioned. It happens.
I"ve never been big on cleaning coins but I do what is asked of me. Coin Care or Blue Ribbon is used mainly on copper and for exactly the reasons Ben has stated. Get the dirt off without "bleaching" a coin.

I also agree with what Thad has to say about cleaning.
My boss will oft times hand me a coin that needs a bit of help. If it's silver he's too quick to want a "dip". I hate dipping. I go for the acetone and water is readily available. A dip is a last resort and there have been occasions when I have just flat out refused. Trashing a more valuable coin is not something I want ANY part of especially if I don't own it.

Coins get cleaned folks. Let's face it and I don't know of any "right" way to do it. I do NOT recommend it to any customers. Still they will do it so I suggest they practice on pocket change before attempting it on other coins.

In closing this thread has helped me as well. Going to add Xylene to our list of things we need at the shop.

 

LOLOLOL....love the pic!

 

Really, that's how most shops operate. My favorite shop is no different.

 

Coin dealers clean coins...what a shock.

 

Tom, are you aware you posted in a thread where a coin researcher (he does not own a collection, he only spends his time researching coins, and related topics) and a Chemist who has spent years developing the product "verdigone" analyzing different chemicals and oils, determining what does and what does not affect a coin, have been having an intelligent discussion based off of facts.
If you can give me a background that exceeds either of these, then I'll go ahead and soak all my coins in lighter fluid. Heck, I'll even light 'em up if you ask me to.

 

Not taking anything away from anybody brother...just posting my opinion of what I know works well. (I haven't tried lighting it I will admit). I'm well aware of the poster's credentials. I can only speak to the validity of the idea, based on my personal experience with the method. Take it or leave it I suppose.

 

For my purpose, adverse cleaning is an action that alters the surface of the coin in a way that damages the natural patina ( and there is a patina formed shortly after minting), and is not acceptable to most. Cleaning is an action where no alteration that damages the natural patina ( bright or toned) occurs, and is acceptable by most standards. Conservation is an action that may alter the surfaces of the coin in order to stop a destructive action or preserve specific aspects of the details. It is a necessary intervention and depending on what is done, may be acceptable to standards ( such as TPG) or it may not be ( No Grade , Genuine). Your definitions may differ.

For people who do not know how to do the last 2 effectively, it is best to advise them not to do anything to their coins. If they can do the last 2, then they will anyway, no matter what people say. But if someone that I don't know their expertise, asks how to clean a coin, the answer will be on the cautious side.

Anyone can adversely clean a coin, but they usually will have already done so before asking for advice.

Jim

 

Opinions? Had you posted that the first time, I would not have been so upset (quite), but here is what you said;

Our opinions and your facts.
Our inexperience (because the wealthy do not need to clean coins) and your facts.

Yeah! Right!

BTW, have you ever looked at the ingredients of lighter fluid? Try it and see if you cannot correlate it to the opinions (your words) that Thad posted in this thread.

 

Dude..sorry to upset you. But I posted a fact. I can't help it differs with popular misconceptions.

Just for kicks though...how many "wealthy" collectors do you know that have tried the method (yet badmouth it just the same).

If I had gotten the information asked a long time ago, instead "Warning...Will Robinson!", I wouldn't be so "upset" with posts that belittle something they've never done versus someone who actually has. Every time I read someone slamming, belittling or otherwise poking fun at the subject...it rubs me the wrong way, so I post...as did you. I had to go to great lengths to confirm
what I have thus far when simple answers could have been supplied instead of warnings of death and destruction.
If you tell me.."I've tried that method and it doesn't work", I would respect that. (I wouldn't believe you actually did though because it does indeed work).

It's an old wound brother from posts long ago but I look for it now. What can I say. When I see the supposed experts directly provide incorrect information..I respond.
At least I post what I have actually done versus blind opinion based on who knows what.

Tell me you don't THINK it would work, not that it won't or doesn't. That's all I'm saying. It's misinformation and a disservice to the new collector.

 

Perhaps there are some exceptions.

Bob Grellman is the world's premier expert on Braided Hair large cents. Those coins are extraordinarily difficult to attribute since the die differences are minute. A primary means of attribution is to look for die polishing lines and gouges made by mint workers finishing the dies. These lines are commonly in the protected areas of the coin, which is where dirt and crud accumulates.

Thus, removing dirt and crud is vital in attributing the coin, and in appreciating the novelty of any given variety.

In Grellman's book "US Cents 1840 - 1857", he describes the process for safely and ethically removing the crud. Step 7 states :

"Add a very thin coat of Care, Blue Ribbon, or some similar protectant."
​

I have received similar advice from the very top names in Early American Copper.

This is not done to deceive any more than a museum conserving and preserving coins is deceptive. In this case, it is a vital and necessary process.

I suppose there are some who use these oils to deceive.