Discussion Topic- Why are Carr "Fantasy Overstrikes" not considered Counterfeits?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Jack D. Young, May 6, 2022.

  1. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    From a web site article I read "The reason these are not illegal is odd, but according to Daniel himself, the Mint and the U.S. Government agree that he is doing nothing wrong. What he does is use genuine coins and over-strike them with his designs.

    The dates Daniel uses are dates that never existed and every coin sold has a disclaimer with it that states “Do not attempt to use these as legal tender. This product is NOT endorsed or approved by the US Mint, US Treasury, or US Government.”"

    And if they are "attempted to be used as legal tender" does that make them counterfeit?

    Is it the overstriking on a genuine coin, the use of non mint made dates or both in combination that grants them non-counterfeit status?

    One of his pieces is a 1919 dated "Peace Dollar", a date not included in the mint struck series.

    DC 1919$.jpg
    Carr 1919 Peace Dollar
    On Carr's web site there is a page illustrating "Unauthorized replicas of Daniel Carr coins and other items incorrectly attributed to Daniel Carr". Seems kind of ironic, fakes of his "fakes"...

    http://moonlightmint.com/fakes.htm

    ctft car 1919.jpg
    "Chinese Replica"​
     
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    This topic used to come up with some frequency here. It leads to a lot of heat, and very little agreement.

    I assume from the way you've phrased the question that you lean toward the "counterfeit" interpretation. Arguments against it include:

    1) Lack of fraudulent intent. The statutes all seem to mention "fraudulent intent".

    2) He's not messing with the money supply. Each of his overstrikes is struck on a coin of equal value.

    3) He's creating nonexistent date/mintmark/strike combinations. This differentiates his work from people who, say, add a D to a 1916 dime, or (in principle) overstrike a 1916 dime to look like a 1916-D.

    Like I said, this will probably end in fire. But there are the points I've seen made, and the ones that have led me to my opinion on the pieces.
     
    Two Dogs, paddyman98, MIGuy and 8 others like this.
  4. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    To many of us they are counterfeit...and should be marked as so or copy on the coin.
    Our neighbors to the North passed a law years ago...that such items need be marked "copy" to distinguish between real money and fake items.
    The Canadian government also passed other copyright laws at the same time to try and control any "goods" that weren't legally made....by the legit company. So any knock offs need be labeled as such....or are considered a infraction of the law.....and destroyed.
    As far as his works being copied or counterfeited now he knows what it feels like....
     
    charley, Bambam8778 and Jack D. Young like this.
  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    If I write "One Dollar" on a piece of paper, it's not counterfeit...if I try to spend it, it becomes counterfeit...intent is important.
     
    Jaelus, usmc 6123, MIGuy and 4 others like this.
  6. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I was going to say something similar to what @-jeffB did about the reasons for why these aren't generally considered to be counterfeits. There has been plenty of contentious debate on this with no clear winner. And I imagine that will continue for the foreseeable future.
     
    Paddy54 likes this.
  7. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I appreciate your thoughts and conviction and am impressed you can determine my "lean toward" from how I phrase a question...

    I wonder how difficult it is to prove "intent" whether fraudulent or not.

    As to whether he is "messing with the money supply", seems it would depend on the scale he is converting legal tender into his versions. It's kind of humerus to me that I was told as a kid it is illegal to "deface" a genuine US coin:D...
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2022
    charley, Stevearino and Kentucky like this.
  8. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Interesting; so the "counterfeits" I may have really are not unless I try to spend/ sell them as genuine?
     
    charley, Raymond Houser and Kentucky like this.
  9. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    As I understand it (and I am not a lawyer), it's not legal to possess them, but it's illegal to utter them (try to pass them as current money), or fraudulently represent them as real coins in order to sell them. They're still counterfeits regardless of what you do with them, of course.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Oh, hardly, but I can ass-u-me with the best of them. :rolleyes:
    Yeah, that gives me heartburn, too. I mean, I could run off a suitcase full of $100s on a nice printer, and have no intent whatsoever to do anything illegal with them. Until I change my mind. How does a change to the rhythms of the neurons sloshing around my skull affect the legal status of a stack of objects?
    ...with fraudulent intent, as the fine print on every elongated-cent machine will tell you. Carr is "messing with the money supply" even less than those machines, because instead of turning a monetary cent into a non-monetary token, he's turning a cent into another cent. Or a dollar into a dollar, or a double eagle into a double eagle.
     
  11. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Love the discussion but you just lost me...

    Is he not also turning a genuine legal tender coin into a non legal tender "token"? And if a cent for a cent, etc than they ARE counterfeits!

    But, I am not trying to argue any point, just trying to understand the mechanics of how he gets away with it:D.
     
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  12. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    I think for the same reason we do not consider a Hobo Nickel a counterfeit or illegal for defacing government struck legal tender.
     
  13. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Because no one has decided to sue or investigate...if the FBI (or someone else) decides otherwise (like with the NORFED Dollars), things can change.
     
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  14. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    You won't get much further with me -- this is about all I've got. ;)

    They're altered coins -- altered in a way that preserves their displayed face value, while changing their date and/or mint mark and/or finish and/or design. He isn't taking a lump of metal and turning it into something that he claims is a dollar or a cent or whatever. And he's not doing it with fraudulent intent, for whatever that's worth.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  15. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    There's numerous threads on numerous forums that have gone through this countless times. People ABSOLUTELY have reported him numerous times to various agencies even the ANA who sided with him.

    NORFED is not comparable at all as that was to replace the USD and even that got over turned in the courts with the property being returned to the owners
     
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  16. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

    Deface is a key word. It means to change the value. And that he does not do as far as I know. Check the history of the 1883 nickel.
    You can't buy a surplus mint coin press an start making coins without knowing the letter of the law.
     
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  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Ever been to a zoo with machines that will elongate a penny as a souvenir that have been around for decades? If you want that personal definition of counterfeit thats your right, but doesnt make it true
     
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  18. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    Many people can report and nothing will happen. But all that can change at any point-even when there aren't any solid legal grounds. Just look at recent history with the FBI.
     
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  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Of course, if some rogue agents want to act one their own hopefully the courts will stop them. Doesnt change the fact that all the TPGs will grade at least some and ANACS will grade them all and that reports have been happening for years and shot down. I lost interest in them for different reasons but can still respect the fact that everything is pointing to it not being illegal
     
    ZoidMeister likes this.
  20. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    If there is no such thing as a mint issued 1919 Peace Dollar, then how can you counterfeit one?

    Like I have said in the past with this subject, why should stupidity, or lack of knowledge, or lack of research, be treated as a handicap where everything is labeled good or bad??

    How many regular collectors here have trouble distinguishing Daniel Carr pieces, from Chinese fakes to the real deal?

    Also the Carr piece in the op shows the broken sword reverse while the Chinese fake shows a "normal" reverse. Just sayin.
     
    ZoidMeister likes this.
  21. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    I'm in the same boat as you. All I'm saying is that if there was enough will, someone could make things more difficult than they need to be (as the court process can take years and lots of funds).
     
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