Romulus Augustus Bronze Coin Die

I read somewhere that although no authentic bronze coins of Romulus Augustus have been found as of yet, but there is documentation indicating dies for such coins were engraved at the Rome mint. Now I can't remember where I read the quote. I thought it was RIC 10, but didn't find it there. I thought maybe Cohen 8, but I don't remember having to translate from French. Does any one know where I may have seen that info, or actually any information at all regarding bronze coins, or dies for bronze coins, for R.A.?

Thanks in advance.

 

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Bronzes of RA are mentioned here with "Salvs Repvblicae" reverse in the Dictionary of Roman Coins:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Dictionary_Of_Roman_Coins/dictionaryByPage.asp?page=700

Other than that, I've seen no reference to bronzes of RA anywhere, let alone a photo - which is the same as them not existing as far as i'm concerned. The extensive collection in the British Museum doesn't have a single bronze of RA.

Tbh i have doubts about all Western Roman bronze coins after Libius Severus. They're all in miserable condition, in barbarous style, easily faked and easily confused with more common early 5th century rulers. And none have legible or complete legends that allow attribution.

 

I still haven't found that reference to the coin's dies, and I was hoping for a less blurry image. I will eventually get better images. These were taken with my daughter's cell phone cam and I think her hands were just too shaky. I found this:

AE4- Romulus Augustus - 9-10mm, 0.45 gms
Obv- DNROMVLVSA(VGVSTVSPF)AVG
Bust Right, Robed?, Laureled
Rev- No Legend, Cross in Wreath
Exergue- RQM, or R Wreath M

Ex: 2013, ebay, uncleaned, seller from Spain.
When first found only the back of the bust was exposed. It looked like an "L".

Ordinarily, I would believe that no bronze issue existed, but ...

If I am wrong, and it is not a genuine AE4, the only other thing it could be is an ancient counterfeit tremissis. They do look very similar, HOWEVER, the tremissis was about 13mm, or at least 3-4mm larger, and weighed 1.4-1.5 gms, or a whole gram heavier. Oh, in addition, the Exergue should say COMOB.

So, if it is a contemporary counterfeit, it wouldn't have fooled very many people.

Another thing to note is it was covered with counterstamps (AVG and CAESAR, for the most part) some of the outlines are still visible. The counterstamps are what caused the "L" shape. In my opinion, from the number of counterstamps and the way they were applied one next to the other apparently at the same time, it appears someone tried to obliterate the entire coin, but missed the first name on this one. Following that logic, I think a batch of these were struck, but not released, before RA was deposed. Stuck with possibly thousands of coins that could not be released, mint officials defaced them intentionally so they could be released anonymously.

Updated images will be posted as soon as I can, but I am interested in what others think at this time.

 

Honestly I can’t see much of anything in those pics

 

I think the photo is too blurry to say something definitive BUT i am 99% sure this can't be RA.

I am particularly interested in seeing the legend more clearly - Roman letters on 5th century AE4s are thick and distinctive, and usually there's only room on such a small flan for a couple of letters. You'd be lucky to fit "DN" on the flan, let alone "DN ROMVLVS".

It can be like looking for shapes in clouds, where you see what you want to see. I have been fooled before too.

This is why I have doubts about AE4s of other late Roman emperors - Majorian, Avitus, Anthemius, Nepos. There is never enough legend to identify the ruler by the obverse alone. Sometimes the reverse monogram provides the ID. But these coins are so crude, they are easily faked - no artistic skills necessary.

"eBay" and "uncleaned" do not give me confidence. Your chances of finding a RA in a batch of a several hundred thousand uncleaned bronze coins are virtually zero, given the vast numbers of common bronze coins that were produced. Your chances of finding a fake bronze coin, or one that looks like it *could* be RA but isn't, are much better.

The finding of a bronze RA in an uncleaned lot would be a significant numismatic event, and should be taken to an expert like David Sear for verification.

 

All ancient coins are uncleaned at one time or another. In the past, I have found Lealianus, and Theodore Mankaphas, both with less than 100 known examples. Those coins were stolen from me in 2007, but a picture of the Mankaphas still exists on Zeno.ru for verification. In the lot that this bronze was found, I also found a bronze Pulcheria and a Gundabad monogram, and there was a piece of silver that read Olybrius but it has since been lost or destroyed.

I too am dissappointed with the images, but I am sure of what the letters are, they are very distinct in hand. I completely understand the skepticism, I want to believe it is something else too, but it is what it is.

It CANNOT be a modern fake. That was genuine 1500 yr old dirt I slowly soaked off. I personally do not own the tools or the knowledge to fake anything.

I honestly want to send it to David Sears for his authentification, but I don't like the idea of sending it registered thru USPS, with only $5,000 insurance on it both ways, at exhorbitant costs. David's fees are fair, but the USPS not to much. And I risk losing a fortune.

 

If you've discovered Pulcheria, Gundobad, Mankaphas, Olybrius, Romulus Augustus AND Laelianus in uncleaned lots, that is extraordinary luck. You would need to be searching through literally hundreds of thousands of coins before you find a single rarity like these by chance.

Many of us have been through the exercise of restoring uncleaned coins, and the usual experience is Constantius II, Constantine, Constans, Valens, more Constantius II, Valentinian, even more Constantius II! Vetranio or Flavius Victor are as rare as it usually gets, and that occurs ... very rarely.

There are other experts besides David Sear. You're in the US, right? How about getting David Vagi's opinion? You'd need authentication anyway for insurance purposes, to protect against another loss. And I'm keen to know the outcome.

 

I apologize, I had a whole answer typed in to explain how my luck runs really good. followed by really, really bad, and the system logged me out and I lost it..

But yes, not exaggerating and not really trying to brag. I did find all of those and more, and yes, I have cleaned untold thousands of coins over last 20 years. I would add Libius Severus to the list of those found (in the more recent 2019/20 lot). I once sold a 10 piece lot of crusties for use in a "zapping" contest that was zapped into a fairly nice legionary denarius. The contestants had to post before and after pics of the lots so that's the only way I knew about it. I also found a Victorianus (early republican silver denomination, same size and weight as later denarius) in that 2013 lot but I almost forgot because it's crystalized and maybe covered with horn silver. I already posted my Otho that is only 2 of a kind, the other is in a Bavarian museum. I have a coin, and I don't know exactly where it came from other than pre-2014, that has a macedonian shield, no big deal, right, but it's on both sides! (wtf?) Crazy luck, but I am afraid the bad luck is coming to wipe it all out again.

I just looked up Vagi. He writes for CoinWorld, like my old teacher, mentor and now email pal, RW Julian. I could reach out to Vagi there, when I get a better image. I'm in Texas, so if you know any names in Austin, Waco or even D/FW area, within driving distance, that would be awesome!

 

[delete]

 

?

 

I feel like this is one of those occam cases - simplest explanation and all that.

sort of like the old adage, “if you think you found a Valentinian III... you didn’t,” the odds of finding an as-yet unknown coin in a random lot is as good as winning Powerball next week.

For your sake I hope it’s true, but lotteries are hard to win.

 

I know it's true. I've actually known for a long time. The legend was once more clear, but the rest of the obv was covered with countermarks that were still filled with crud. So, I kept working on it. I'm only hoping I can prove it to the rest of the world before "something bad" happens to it, and the legend becomes totally illegible or the coin is either lost, stolen or destroyed.

 

Bumping this thread. I’m hoping for better pics

 

As @GregH said, these late coins tend to have rather short legends.

my latest, a LEO, barely has enough room for just 5 letters - DNLEO. Can’t imagine a full DN ROMVLVS PF AVG fitting in that flan by any stretch.

 

That is without a doubt 100% NOT Romulus Augustus.
You would be wasting your money sending that to David Sear. Led alone worrying about insurance to get it to the man
Though, would love to see your Pulcheria, Gundobad, Mankaphas, Olybrius and Laelianus coins

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to be a skeptic until I can see better pictures. The quality of AE coinage had already gone down the drain by the time Valentinian III died, let alone 20 years later. I'm with @hotwheelsearl on this one - I don't think there was an engraver at Rome or Ravenna who was talented enough to fit ROMVLVS on an AE4, or that would be bothered to do so for worthless bronze anyway.

The fact that
1) No AE coinage has ever been found for Romulus
2) The proposed design is entirely the wrong style for Western coins post-Majorian
3) Also except for Majorian, post-455 emperors' AE coinage was exclusively monogram types, not crosses, which had gone out of style decades previously.

None of it adds up to convince me that this is a genuine Romulus Augustus AE

 

People are being way more respectful than this deserves. You might as well be telling us that you see the face of God in a piece of toast. Assuming that you're not trying to pull our collective legs, it's just an example of pareidolia. "Shaky camera" is a terribly poor excuse; you shouldn't even be wasting people's time posting this without a clear picture. If you really have the courage of your convictions, send it to NGC (David Vagi and @Barry Murphy) for evaluation. And when they tell you it's nothing, don't accuse them of switching the real one for a fake!

 

I must say I understand the suspicious and disbelief, but I appreciate the respect and courtesy, not the derision. Again, I apologize for the suspiciously poor images. I'm not joking or making this up or chasing shadows. I have been cleaning and collecting world coins since 1972 and started cleaning ancients since 2001. Eventually I was buying pounds and selling ounces, and skimming 100 coins for my self from each pound that crossed my desk. So, I am not a newbie amateur. I know how to tell letters from an overstrike from originally struck letters. I'm thinking of writing a paper on LRB countermarks because no one has done it yet and a have a pile of them. I have cleaned literally thousands have studied thousands more online. I have read all the books and know just how crazy everything will think this is. I know it's not arcadius or honorius. The coin is what I'm telling you it is, and eventually I will get an image to show it. I would have already, but my scanner took a dump and I simply don't have the equipment or steady hands to get a clear image of such a tiny item. I think my daughter's phone is capable, but she was too rushed and shaky this time to get it right. The legends look nothing like LEO's clunky letters. They aren't exactly the pretty letters from 70 years earlier either, but they fit RA's entire name and titles on his Tremisses which was only 3-4 mm larger- check wildwinds, there are 3 tremisses that are larger gold versions of my coin.

http://wildwinds.com/coins/ric/romulus_augustus/RIC_3419.jpg

My coin is too small and light to pass for a tremisses, but that's the closest resemblance to compare it too.

I didn't know what the Mankaphas was so I posted it to zeno.ru and immediate got the, No it can't be, you're so FOS. THEN the expert on the subject entered and confirmed it's identity. SO PLZ don't doubt my ability or call my ethics into question here.

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=10681

The Lealianus and the Mankaphas were stolen with my entire 1200+ ancient collection in 2007.

 

Oh and it's b*tt f*gly, but here's my d*mn Pulcheria too. I never could get a good image of the Lealianus, which was stolen from me in Troy Texas along with the CONFIRMED Mankaphas, and I already stated the Olybrius maybe lost or wiped out. There was almost no design left on the coin, just the letters which were practically microscopic and hard to find so it may still show back up one day. I'll try to image the Gundabad when I do the RA. It was overstruck on Salus Rep, but the monogram might stand out because much of it is green. After checking it's ID, I dropped the silver (prob just billon) Libius Severus with Chi Rho reverse back into the lot it came out of, so I know it's here but not exactly where it is.

 

That’s the point - they SHOULD look like that.

I don’t want to be derisive, but burden of proof hasn’t been met.

You have a coin, it’s apparently unpublished and unique, but its style isn’t typical of the mid to late 5th century AE4s. Nonetheless you have specifically identified it as such. It hasn’t been examined by an expert numismatist.
Your entire family suffers from shaky hands and they are ALL unable to take clear photos with their various phones. GET A FRIEND TO TAKE THE PHOTO WITH A MODERN SMARTPHONE OR A PROPER CAMERA!

in addition to this, you’ve discovered coins of several rare emperors, including one of the only siliquae of Olybrius in existence. However you didn’t think it was important enough to photograph before it was stolen.

(Oh god, we’re being trolled aren’t we? Lol)