A bronze tetarteron of John III Ducas-Vatatzes, SBCV 2115 for $9,999?

It must be a typographical error. I just came across this listing on Forum for what I thought is a scarce to rare coin, but at $9,999 something isn't right. Time for a reality check.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/c...sp?param=74509q00.jpg&vpar=18&zpg=114450&fld=

Is this some super rare variety?

Here's my example from a Roma group lot in 2021.

 

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. One could get gold for less than that.

 

I’ve seen that happen before at FORVM. I think it’s just a default price when someone forgets to add it or there is an error. A few years ago there were several coins priced like this and the answer was that it was that it was just a data entry error.

 

I love these, you don't see them often.
The symbol of the Cherub with wings is the same symbol that is said to be depicted on the Arc of the Covenant.

 

It happens frequently on Forvm. It's usually when new coins are added and the prices haven't been updated/added yet. It will get fixed, as it always does.

 

Would you believe it is a publicity stunt to get you to talk about FORVM? No. OK, right, I forgot to price the coin before adding it to the shop. $160.00

 

Good to see a dealer with a sense of humour.

Here's my winged seraphim assarion of Andy II and Mike IX:

Hw do you tell the difference between winged seraphim and winged cherubim?

 

Seraphim: 6 wings

 

Oh well, I missed my chance to post my coin on eBay, at $8,000 with a 50% discount.

Such a deal!

 

Just call yourself Mr. High Price - Low Rating. Truth in advertising!

 

Actually it was going to be "Mr. High Price - Gottcha!", but perhaps that would be a bit of a give-a-way.

 

That's a good question. My understanding is that cherubim are angels closest to God, sometimes including archangels.

According to Britannica, seraphim are "seraph, plural seraphim, in Jewish, Christian, and Islamic literature, celestial being variously described as having two or three pairs of wings and serving as a throne guardian of God."

I don't know if there is any hierarchy to these two classifications, or if either is unionized.

 

Thanks - how delightfully simple! Looking around online, it seems there's quite a lot of controversy over the theology of seraphim and cherubim. A few cryptic lines here and there in scripture have led to a lot of spilled ink!

 

There are several coins that depict the Winged Seraphim (and FORVM fixed the price ). Here are a few in my collection:

Byzantine Empire: Michael VIII Palaeologos (1261-1282) Æ Trachy, Constantinople (Sear-2276)
Obv: Seraphim facing, holding lance in each hand
Rev: Michael seated facing on high-backed throne, holding labarum-headed scepter and akakia



Kingdom of Thessalonica: John Comnenus-Ducas (1237-1242) BI Trachy, Thessalonica (Sear 2210; DOC IV, Type L B.25a; Grierson 1223; CLBC 14.13.3; Lianta 401-404; Bendall, Notes 20/III)
Obv: Head of cherub nimbate, with wings
Rev: IШ - OAΓOC; Full-length figure of emperor on left, and of beardless, nimbate saint (Demetrius?) in military dress; between them cross, surmounted by globule on long shaft. Emperor wears stemma, divitision, collar-piece, and jeweled loros of simplified type; right hand holds anexikakia; Saint wears short military tunic, breastplate and sagion; left hand holds sword resting over shoulder



Empire of Nicaea: John III Ducas-Vatazes (1222-1254) Æ Tetarteron, Magnesia (Sear 2115)
Obv: Head of cherub with four wings; triangle of three pellets in field on either side
Rev: IШ ΔЄCΠOTHC O ΔϪKAC in two columnar groups. Full-length figure of emperor wearing stemma, divitision, and chlamys; right hand holds labarum-headed sceptor; left hand holds glob cruciger



I know this one looks like crap, but the plate coin in Radushev & Zhekov looks just as bad. Its like Prego, its in there ..

Bulgarian Empire: Konstantin I Asen (1257-1277) Æ Trachy (Raduchev & Zhekov 1.4.17)
Obv: Head of cherub with four wings
Rev: Half-length facing bust of Konstantin I, holding labarum and globus cruciger; Ц in right field

 

Cool. Maybe I should look at my bag of Latin/Bulgarian trachae.

 

Well, too bad, I was hoping that was a real price!

I've had a bunch of neat, but not special, Palaeologian and Komnenos hemi-tetartera and tetartera for 10-20 years. But until a few months ago, I knew next to nothing about John III or the Empire of Nicaea, much less the Tetartera of John III of Nicaea. But in the last five months I've quickly familiarized with many of the last 180 years of references, collections, and sales.

(Becoming familiar with all that literature culminated in the final sentence of this comment, "The other model [...] Peirce Collection.")

I've been getting a lot of mileage out of this coin posting it here, but it fits this thread's theme well, so I'll bring it out again!

John III Ducas-Vatatzes (Emperor of Nicaea, 1222-1254) AE Tetarteron (20mm, 3.29 g, 6h). Magnesia mint. SB 2114.​

In CNG 504 it was described as "Reportedly ex “Goodacre’s Byzantine Empire” (Downie-Lepczyk 70, 17 September 1986), lot 275 (not illustrated in catalog)."

With a bit of research I found it was a plate coin in Hugh Goodacre's (1865-1952) popular (1933/1965) A Handbook of Coinage in the Byzantine Empire AND two important articles of his: (1931) “Notes on Some Rare Byzantine Coins,” Numismatic Chronicle 11 (43): 151-159; and (1938) “The Flat Bronze Coinage of Nicaea,” Numismatic Chronicle 18: 159-164.




The Goodacre Collection, I learned, was also on loan at Oxford's Ashmolean Museum from 1952 to c. 1986.

Hard to be sure with line drawings and old collections with incomplete info, but it also seems likely this is the same example from the Curt von Bose (Leipzig, 1808-1884) Collection illustrated, first, in de Saulcy (1842), and then one of the models for Leon Dardel's illustration in Sabatier (1862) and cited (not ill.) in BMC Vandals p 219, note 1 (referencing Sabatier's & de Saulcy's example).


(The other model for Dardel's Sabatier illustration was probably DOC IV, XXXIV 56.1 = Hendy 1969 34.1 = Prince Karl Egon II of Furtstenberg Coll., Cahn 75, lot 1759 = probably de Saulcy Collection before = later Peirce Collection.)

 

What a great pedigree on that coin! I have been out of the coin purchasing business for a while now (just got back a week ago) and I would have surely looked into getting that piece. Congrats!

Here is the one I bought a few years ago. Alas, it doesn't have a pedigree aside from the normal N&N auction. It would have been an awesome coin, if it wasn't struck a bit off-center...

Empire of Nicaea: John III Ducas-Vatazes (1222-1254) Æ Tetarteron, Magnesia (Sear 2114)
Obv: Square, formed on four interlaced bands ornamented with pellets
Rev: IШ ΔЄCΠOTHC O ΔϪKAC in two columnar groups. Full-length figure of emperor wearing stemma, short military tunic, breastplate and sagion; left hand holds sword, resting over shoulder; right hand on sheath, point downward
Dim: 18 mm, 1.97 g

 

It's a great example, period! I recognize that one from looking up all the ones I could find in auctions. It seems like there are very few showing the emperor's entire body on the flan with that much legend! Great details of his attire. The patina gives it the look of leather armor, which is really cool.

Doesn't your description have a few too many characters on the left side legend? (IШ ΔЄCΠOTHC O ΔϪKAC) I think that's the "full legend" on trachy types. Your coin may have only 1-2 characters (ЄC) off flan (which is better than >95% of these).

I think it's more like: IШ ΔЄC O ΔϪKAC (but I don't ever see the Ϫ ... Maybe only: IШ ΔЄC O ΔKAC ?). Funny thing about some early references -- de Saulcy had only seen the one coin & had to guess what the inscriptions were based on other types on John III's coinage (flat & cup coins), and got it wrong! Sabatier had access to a better example and was the first to give the legend above, which Goodacre also used in his 1933 Handbook (vol 3), though he gave fewer characters in his 1931 article. Sear & Suarez don't give legends. Haven't double-checked Hendy & DOC.

Personally I go with the even short version, which is almost fully visible on yours (I've only got about 4.5 characters visible on mine): IШ ΔЄC O ΔKAC

 

The legends came from DOC and thus, I used that for my attributions. Some of DOCs coins indicate a fuller legend than the short legends typically seen. Unfortunately, the plate coins aren't clear enough for me see the legends. The only coins I have personally seen are the ones with the shorter legends as you indicate.

 

I am jealous of you both, it is one of the few I am missing.

This is common but I think it is a perfect example.


This one just nice.

Nice Christ haircut, not the norm.