In need of some advice

Here is something to think about. What if the incomplete letters are opposite a fully struck area on the other side or if the hammer blow is tilted and off center from the weak part of the design with incomplete letters...

IMHO, the edge IS NOT FILED! It has been smoothed over for whatever the reason. I highly doubt is is a "cup and saucer" alteration.

 

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just to clarify, the coin I posted of Titus IS an absolute fake. There have been at least three of these identical coins found on the market in the past several years. Two auction houses removed them when notified, one did not.
I think you may have a valid argument about an unevenly distributed hammer blow.

 

Do you mind letting me know which auction house didn’t remove it - I have one of these

 

The obverse a reverse of this coin looked OK for the most part. Crawford 469/1 always looks different than other denarii of the period, such that even 100% authentic examples look fake to some extent. The way these were made, the fields are oddly flat and smooth and seldom exhibit the convincing flow lines or signs of striking that you see on other denarii of the period. Unfortunately, the edge of the coin had been clearly filed down in modern times with clear file marks and signs of smoothing leaving behind and odd edge that was impossible to judge. It was impossible to tell if the edge issues were the results of having been altered to put the coin in a bezel, or if the filing was hiding a casting seam. As such we chose not to put the coin in a holder. if we aren't convinced a coin is genuine, we don't put it in a holder.

Barry Murphy

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

Do you care to answer a few questions? If not, maybe David can write something on the NGC site about the tools you use at the office.

1. Did you use a specific gravity tests for this coin?
2. Did you use a microscope for this coin?
3. Did you test the metallic alloy composition of this coin?
4. Are there actually round holes in the obverse surface of this coin?
5. Have you ever seen an edge on an ancient with these exact characteristics?

 

1 - I don't recall. SG is sort of a last resort test. XRF tests can actually go deep enough to pick up the base metal core, unless the silver plating is exceptionally thick.
2 - I don't recall. I have a 5x, 10x, and 20x loupe on my desk. Sometimes I use the scope, most times not.
3 - yes. The results weren't recorded other than "xrf test was normal for issue"
4 - Not sure what you are referring too.
5 - with these "exact characteristics", I doubt it, but I see a lot of damaged coins with "unique" damage.

Barry

 

The reproduction could be as "modern" as the late 18th or early 19th century. I have read that the British were making similar counterfeits of Spanish dollars during one of their wars with Spain. The idea was to undermine the Spanish economy in one of their colonies.

Later the British got burned on their own sword when counterfeiters put the King George III counterstamp on some of these fakes. It undermined the acceptance of an already unpopular coin.

 

It wasn't an electrotype.

Barry

 

Lanz.
However, upon close inspection of your coin , it does NOT appear to be the same copy. The several coins I saw were exactly alike.

 

Think you very much Mr. Murphy for explaining the issues with my coin. Unfortunately I've reached out to Lucernae Numismatics and they refuse to take back the coin and issue a refund. When in my complaint I stated what NGC had put on the label and that your company had refused to slab it, part of the response I got back was "...please, try with ANACS because they probably make his job correctly. NGC think they are God in the earth and maybe they are not make things correctly."

Frankly I'm very disappointed with their response. They also say that I waited too long to question the coin and because of some European laws (I don't know what laws he is referring to), I am not allowed to make a claim against the coin.

I'm going to wait a few hours before I respond to their email so I can more calmly put my thoughts together, but for now, I'm not going to recommend Lucernae Numismatics to anyone.

 

Wow, never heard of that before...

 

Hello @Cinco71
Because of the way, Lucernae has treated you, I certainly will never buy from Lucernae.
EDIT : After re-reading your post, it looks like, in your message to Lucernae, that you mentioned, what NGC had put on the label, including "Edge Filing".
I can't imagine a reputable auction house, like CNG or Leu Numismatik for example, treating anyone, the way Lucernae has treated you.

 

What an unpleasant response. I am pretty sure, from what others here have said, that a buyer has a right to cancel a transaction for any reason within a certain number of days of the purchase. But I'd be very surprised to learn that the same law prohibits getting a refund after that deadline when you do have a good reason, like the coin being fake.

 

If you purchased the coin through Lucernae's VCoins store, you could ask VCoins customer service for assistance.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, though it was through a Catawiki auction. I'll reach out to Catawiki, too.

 

What does Lucernae disagree with? They think the edge is original?

Barry.

 

The email I got from the person at Lucernae ignored the edge filing entirely and just focused on a) NGC made "no decision" about the coin, b) therefore I should try my luck with ANACS because c) they believe the coin is original, and d) I waited too long to object to the coin.

I've just now written back asking for clarification on their policies about returns, and I'm writing to Catawiki about the same thing. I also sent them photos of the edges along with your previous comments about why the coin was refused. I really don't want to send the coin to ANACS since that may well be a waste of money if they reject it, and even if they didn't, I don't care for their holders.

This is turning into a frustrating experience, but one that I'm certainly learning from.

 

ANACS will slab it. They don't mention problems and don't have the expertise to judge authenticity with ancients. We get a lot of ANACS and ICG coins to reholder and I see lots of fakes and lots of problem coins.

Barry

 

You have done a service to all here by pointing out another coin source to be avoided. Perhaps the highlight of this is the statement, "Send it to ANACS, they'll slab anything."

 

I am disappointed with Lucernae. I have done business with them in the past, mostly in the area of Spanish coinage, but this shoddy treatment over the return of the OP coin is a mark against them in my mind.

Yes, ANACS certification is problematic when it comes to ancients. I even had a "old man" dollar of Formosa that was certified genuine by them in 1992 turn out to be a fake, or reproduction if you prefer, made in New York back in the 1950s.