Ukraine: from the sublime (in the worst, archaic sense of the word) to the (slightly) ridiculous

During the couple of weeks leading up to the Russian invasion, I was looking at this, from a Ukrainian detectorist who's been listing on US ebay. An arrowhead, Kievan Rus'; to quote the seller, 'c. 9th-13th century.'

I wound up springing for it, after the detectorist offered a fairly hefty discount. Predicated on the notion that whatever Putin was going to do still wasn't as imminent as it, well, was. Even then, I couldn't help congratulating him on 'your brave, and otherwise admirable nation.' He sent a tracking number and everything.
Except, Oops, according to the tracking, it hasn't left Kiev since February 16.
...Yes, I bought it for the significance of Kievan Rus' to the Viking Age, as a complement to a coin I've already posted about a couple of times, too recently to warrant finding the links. --Okay, here's the pic; an imitation of a common contemporaneous Byzantine miliaresion.

Right, Kiev gave its name to the Viking-ruled polity that evolved into the Russian state. But regarding Putin's argument that history going back this far somehow overrules what happened over the succeeding millennium, there was this on NPR tonight.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/26/1083332620/how-ukraines-history-differs-from-putins-version
...I paid via PayPal, with its expansive refund policy, but if that was going to come out of the seller's pocket, I'd much rather just walk away from that, slowly, backward, showing both hands.
The Ukrainians' communal response to what's happening is nothing short of heroic. Never mind Premier Zelensky's 0-60 acceleration from television personality to statesman. (Yes, apparently, Sometimes, that actually Works.) I have no particular ties to the country (apart from a maintenance guy at the apartment, whose English is, well, thank you, that much better than my Ukrainian). But I'm sure that the people here who pray are doing some of that.
...Otherwise, this probably belongs elsewhere on this forum. But you're cordially welcome to riff on this, any way you care to.

 

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Ain't touching nuthin' here with a ten foot pole..........

 

Over the years, I’ve noticed a lot of metal detector found worn denari from Ukraine on eBay… especially late 2nd century coins. I’ve always wondered why so many worn coins are found there and what situation is with metal detecting finds. It seems that it is allowed and finders are allowed to keep finds, or there are no teeth to existing regulations or laws and they are ignored.

 

Yes, the history of Ukraine and Kyiv has its roots deep in history, including the Vikings, who traded as far as Constantinople in the Middle Ages.

The history of the Ukraine and surrounding countries, including the Baltic countries, is complex, often serving as the backdrop between competing powers, including Russia, Poland, Sweden, Prussia and the Austro-Hungarian Empire (aka Holy Roman Empire in really olden times).

History does not lend itself to simplistic slogans and reductions. As collectors of ancients, world and other coinage, and as students of history, the words of authoritarians aimed for the purpose of stoking nationalism at the expense of the right of a nation's people to determine their own future is odious, cynical, repulsive and against international norms and laws.

It is unfortunate about your shipment, which still might show up. Who knows, stranger things have happened. But I agree that it is best to let the matter pass. People are struggling at this moment to survive in the face of a invasion by an overwhelming force.

 

Sellers of metal detector finds in Ukraine are notorious for describing whatever they find as Kievan Rus or Viking, because that's what buyers in the West want. The chances that that's what it actually is -- as opposed to something that may long predate Kievan Rus -- are not great. Not that you're ever likely to see it. If you want it identified nonetheless, you can join the io ancientartifacts group, where there are experts on this kind of thing, and post the photo there.

I would hope the feelings that you express aren't viewed as controversial here, and that there aren't too many members who would disagree. Nonetheless, this isn't really the place for the subject.

 

Thanks for that, @Orange Julius --both for lightening the tone, generally, and for your obsevation about late 2nd century coins turning up in Ukraine. That was news to me, but it set off a few synapses.
From here, it's an easy guess that, between the Roman Empire being as deeply involved in, well, transcontinental trade as it was, and Ukraine being kind of 'off the beaten path' (who was there at the time, besides Scythians? --no offense to Scythians), the coins could have wound up there after a good interval of circulation in broadly adjacent parts of the world. ...Whether the Empire itself or other, neighboring countries on its periphery.

 

The

Pechenegs? Alans? Huns? Heruli? Ostrogoths? Later on, Khazars? Probably a bit late for Scythians.

 

I can promise you, @DonnaML, I've seen Plenty of artifacts from Ukrainian sellers that are demonstrably screamingly on the same level as the moronic fakes of medieval coins from sellers in the Balkans and points north. It was largely by way of contrast that this struck me as being likely to be the real deal. And I appreciate your nuanced efforts to bring me back to earth, as far as the subject matter is concerned. ...Except, it Did begin with the (ostensible) artifact....

 

No, there I was referencing @Orange Julius, talking about Roman coins from the late 2nd century. Not so much the 10th or 11th. ...Never mind the 4th and 5th (Alans, Huns), or other intervening ones. ...Yes, the Pechenegs were also contemporaneous to the Kievan Rus'.

 

There was a thread on ancients found in Ukraine a while back:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ukraine-coins.386590/#post-7896526

As @+VGO.DVCKS says, the Ukrainians are indeed heroic. But what a tragedy.

 

This is what I find interesting… the coins I see are many times from the era of Marcus Aurelius, Commodus, their families and others from a bit before and after this central time period. Anyway, I just always wondered if imperial denari from Rome were just in wide spread circulation to the extent they were also part of the economy in Ukraine at the time… or were there large caches of silver (maybe even later from hoards) moving east along trade routes?

 

Oh, Heck, @robinjojo, they made it Waaaay into Central Asia; witness the profusion of Samanid dirhams found in Scandinavia; single examples finding their way, via the same trade network, as far west as the Norse kingdoms of York and Dublin, along with Iceland.
Regarding nationalism generally, from here, the whole concept is reeking crap. A lot like 'race' --Show Me One other example, in mammalian zoological taxonomy, where the term is even used. Back to nationalism, it's kind of like, if you really descend from only one major ethnicity, keep your sons and daughters under lock and key. --For the sake of the rest of the species, because you're frighteningly inbred.

 

The Romans had a significant presence at Cherson in Crimea from an early date, with a provincial mint and (from the 5th century) an imperial mint. It should not come as a surprise that well-worn denarii turn up.

 

@+VGO.DVCKS Good thread.
My Alexander III The Great tetradrachm was minted in Odessos, which is now called "Varna" in Bulgaria, on the western coast of the Black Sea, not very far from Ukraine.
Interestingly, in Ukraine, there is a modern day city called "Odessa", which was renamed after the ancient Greek city Odessos in 1795.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#Name
The modern day city Odessa, is also on the coast of the Black Sea, somewhat north of Varna. The modern day city Odessa is in one of the areas, that is currently being attacked by the Russian military.

Alexander III The Great Posthumous Issue AR Tetradrachm. 280 BC to 200 BC. Odessos Mint. Price 1163. Diameter = 28 mm. Weight = 16.74 grams. Obverse Heracles In Lion Skin. Reverse Zeus On Throne.

 

Thanks Lots, @Marsyas Mike, for the link to this thread!
...From here, it's easy to guess that the circulation of official Roman denarii would have elicited local copies. How much precedent is there ...anybody? Just saying, Lots.

 

Thanks, @sand, for demonstrating what I was yammering about in my last post here --in the conspicuous absence of an example.
Interesting that the renaming of the Ukrainian Odessa was as modern, and revisionistic as that. 1795 would correspond to the apex of Neoclassicism in Europe more generally.

 

I'm not suggesting that it's fake. Just that it's not likely to be what it's described to be.

 

Bee Gees.

I'll go stand in the corner.......

 

Thanks for this, @dltsrq. All I knew about were the Byzantine issues from Cherson. Cool (and, very much after the fact, intuitive) that the Romans had that substantial of a presence in the same neighborhood well earlier than that.

 

@green18, I'm not getting the Bee Gees allusion (when they were on the radio, I always wanted to cover my ears --the Commodores? different; Not the same), but you're very welcome here, in whatever capacity.