The Official Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Thread

That was the unusual portion of my post, where I posted 2 copies of the "motto", representing a normally very relatively scarce coin.

You are as most, uninformed about this type which has been verified that archives show eBay has never sold this type coin.

Only 2 collectors responded to my post. It's believed both didn't relate to the type.

Even though the slab indicates "with motto", believed inadequate attention was paid by a very well established dealer in collectables.

To answer your question about the coin you referenced, it was believed a STEAL, sold at a price ~25% below current dealer CAC/C.D.N. published buy price/value before buyers premium, taxes, shipping, etc..

JMHO

 

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Battle Of The 67's: Didn't realize to what extent the population numbers for the 1908 NM have depressed the price of a Superb Gem.

Without the BPs, a few 1924 MS-67's have recently gone for $12,500.....the 1928 is scarcer and went for about $14,000....but the 1908 No Motto went for under $6,000 !! All graded MS-67.

Even accounting for any differences in grading, that's a big difference considering they are all considered "common" Saints.

 

Yes, Steal Deal.

 

Please review offerings on the most popular auction sites before posting your brash statements!

I believe you'll find numerous posts that meet my statement: "Some dealers are asking that amount for the bean, above normal top-tier TPG certified market sales values."

Are you interested in a brash bet?

I and others have considered you to be investigative and authoritative.

Just curious if you've acquired many Double Eagles, or just like to post about same. I've purchased 3 "scarce" CACed this week, generally believing in my posts, but I'm fallible. I, and others believe Fiat is being diminished in value, while preferred tangibles maybe less.

I believe you can find 1927 MS66 @ <$4000, with a CAC @ ~>$6000, plus many more.

Hopefully, this post will be accepted as informative rather than critical, as there are believed far more severe matters. LOL

JMHO

 

I have, I usually see about a 20-25% premium for the CAC sticker. But 40% isn't unheard of especially at the "jump" grades.

I mis-typed. I meant that the premium in the "jump" grades is about 40% of the coins price (the actual premium) but only about 25% of the way to the next grade's price.

So...1924/27 Saints in MS-66 will sell for about $4,000 give-or-take. The MS-67's sell for $12,000 - $14,000. The MS-66 CACs sell for about $5,500 or so.

I llike to do my part .....seriously, I like the coin and the coin's history so I read alot about them when I can.

No, I haven't acquired that many Saint DE's. What you bought this week probably represents my purchases the last 2 or 3 years !

About $4K give-or-take.

CAC for maybe a bit under $6,000 -- depends.

As I said, closing about 25-30% of the "gap" between MS-66 and MS-67. I mistyped previously when I used the term "premium" a bit sloppily.

Apologies....

I learn by being corrected on my mistakes and ALWAYS welcome informative give-and-take, IM. Thanks for helping me to clarify what I meant by premium and the gap between the "jump" grades.

 

Well Accepted/Presented!

Now, I'm hoping that some can positively address the "More Severe Matters"

Time will tell. I'm still Rich, imrich

 

IMr, over at GC......a 1928 MS-66+ went for $4,368/$4,914 and a 1924 MS-66+ went for $3,701/$4,164. Thought both might be higher since MS-67's for each go closer to $12-$14K. Another 1924 MS-66+ went for $4,100/$4,613.

A few MS-66 CACs are listed, I'll see what they bring and report back.

 

IM....when talking about CAC premiums for Saints (and probably even other coins)....I wasn't even considering with an ultra-rare population. I was assuming dozens or hundreds of coins in a particular listed grade.

For some MS-67's, I've seen a CAC premium add 100-300% to the value of the coin, sometimes because nothing is graded at MS-68.

But at that super-common Gem level MS-65 for a 1924, for example, that premium has been 20-25% the last few years because the 65's and 66's are so plentiful.

 

Saint-Gaudens Auctions: Wow, lots of useful datapoints tonight.

A 1908 NM MS-66+CAC went for $5,100/$5,738. Low bidding activity, though.

A 1927 MS-67 went for $16,643/$18,723. Very active bidding.

A 1928 MS-66+CAC went for $7,500/$8,438. Only 1 bidder.

A 1928 MS-67 went for $15,005/$16,881. Very active bidding.

A 1928 MS-66 went for $4,225/$4,753. Active bidding.

 

Thank you for the post which I believe perfectly shows what I've seen all along, and is the basis of my collecting, arguments.

Buyers are generally bidding/buying the grade on the slab.

The 1928 MS66 probably was a D/E level coin, the 1908NM MS66+CAC a C coin, the 1928 MS66+CAC a C+ coin, the 1927-8 MS67 were both sold at a ~100% premium above the MS66+CAC coins which commanded a significant premium above the plain grade MS66, both in activity and pricing.

I buy the coin, regardless of grade, especially when I know the scarcity, and raw resubmission afirms my logic, TPG used for submission dependent.

JMHO

 

I didn't see any bubble-like bidding. The MS-67's seem to have moved the most %-wise, so either folks are moving up price-wise or we got some well-heeled new buyers moving up the prices.

You think they were ALL lower-tier coins ? I'm going to re-look at them, but 2 of them got CAC stickers so it's hard at first glance to say that they were weak for the grade.

JA is notorious for being very tough on gold coins, esp. Saints.

What do you mean "reaw resubmission affirms my logic" and TPGs are submission dependent ?

 

I went over each of the coins in-depth for about 30 seconds on each side:

1928 MS-67....OBVERSE: a bit dirty with bagmarks in the field at 9 PM...2 die cracks (?) which I personally don't like at the bottom of Liberty's gown and a discoloartion mark extending from the "R"...REVERSE: Dark discoloration at 3 PM feathers and 9 PM rim.

1928 MS-66.....OBVERSE: Baggier than the MS-67, gouge at 6 PM. REVERSE: Rim is nicked all-around....bagmarks @ 8 PM.

1928 MS-66+CAC....OBVERSE: Pretty clean fields...REVERSE: Discoloration along top of wings and at 9 PM. "IN" inscription has circular blotch. Discoloration below words at 6 PM.

1927 MS-67: OBVERSE: Good fields, but blotch along left-side of gown (or plastic scratch ?). Fields look OK but lighting may be hiding some bagmarks. Left field has some scratches or die cracks (can't tell)...REVERSE: Scratches/blotches at 6 PM look to be on holder, not coin so assuming that's the case, very clean reverse. Some discoloration.

1908 NM MS-66+CAC: OBVERSE: Fields are clean, though lighting may be hiding some bagmarks at 9PM. REVERSE: Blackish discolorations or dings across rays.

NET-NET: I think overall the quality was pretty good, the CAC coins definitely seemed solid for the grade and gold. I didn't see any gross overgrades, or undergrades for that matter.

You would think that by now most -- not all, but most -- large gold coins of high-quality (including DEs) would have been resubmitted if they could have gotten a higher grade making the coin more valuable, esp. at "jump" grades.

In fact....I wonder if it is possible to find out how many CAC stickers have been given out each year for various coins ? If my thesis is right the numbers should be steady-to-declining. If I'm wrong, they should be shooting up in numbers.

 

Chrome plays games with my e-mail word processor, constantly moving, adding, removing characters. I've previously corrected your sentence in correction, but just looked, and had to correct again as the changes are
"untimely" added.

One of the "top tier" TPG is notorious for mistakes, of which I've saved several expensive, and as one post on this site showed, several on one submission. I recommended that this "Mother of errors" should be saved for someone like me who is trying for quality correction.

Submission costs using a surrogate for having coins "top tier" TPG graded are quite expensive, especially when submitting a high value lot. When the submitter needs to repeatedly submit after calls, without success, a level is reached where the resource just shouldn't be used for expensive items that they are known to have grading problems.

It appears that the average submitter on this site hasn't
experienced the problem, and make light of quality problems. If I had designed my expensive unique first generation patented equipment once, I wouldn't have had a job/career.

We are responsible for change when we've paid for an inadequate service. We should be reimbursed for expenses, with punitive damages.

JMHO

 

I suspect the thrust of Mr. imrich comments, is that there is a barrier of a less than satisfying result to obtaining a CAC designation, due to the inadequacies of a TPG to be consistent and reliable with the opinions of Grade the TPG 'awards", and yet the submitter is the harmed Party economically for such inadequacies, and Mr. imrich opines he would be in a stronger position if he were allowed to submit directly instead of via a TPG designation requirement.

I can certainly understand that preference. It will never be, but then there was the Edsel.....

 

My logic forces me to ask if they were plus (+) coins, high for their grade with CAC, why would a similar coin without plus or CAC, at the bottom of the next grade, be sold for double the price, in the same auction?

CAC approval only indicates they're average for the current "market grading" standards. If the coins being seen, described in your post as seemingly being technically grade deficient, CAC might not add much of a quality increase (i.e. less than the 40% I indicated).

Thus I plead "your honor"

JMHO

 

Links To The Saints Mentioned Above: For those who want to know what the coins referenced above look like, here they are....

1928 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-67

1928 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-66

1928 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-66+ CAC

1927 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-67

1908 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle No Motto PCGS MS-66+ CAC

 

I can submit directly, being approved immediately in a conversation with the recognized quality expert/owner of CAC. I would rather pay/have established opinion from quality/quantity submitters.

Regardless, if a TPG is quality/type deficient, a submitter has few options.

I should post actions/comments, reported here in the past, only to be called a liar. Directly written from the organization when a prominent well established Dealer submitted an ACG very scarce quality coin in its' ACG holder at a show.

I just needed a supposed opinion from the Creme De La Creme. LOL

JMHO

 

That was my point and what I interpreted was the point of your post.

 

I'll leave it to veterans who have submitted to TPGs, CAC, and numerous dealers to opine as I am simply out of my league speculating.

Of course, one would LIKE to think that the coin is being judged by the TPG and/or CAC....not the submitter.

But one wonders, right ?

 

That is a good summation of the World of Edsel Coins.