What makes a noteworthy provenance?

I think the provenance is important or noteworthy when it adds information to the coin.

This example below for example. It can be traced back to the find spot, you can read more info from the PAS here: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/748247

The coin is even imaged on the PAS site, it's in the lower left hand corner. The PAS ID is NMS-102704.

Some info extracted from the PAS site:
Discussion: The coins were found in the same area as a hoard found previously which had been scattered by agricultural activity (NMS-102704, 2015T884) and an addendum found in 2017 (NMS-1A6962, 2017T442). As with the two previous groups of coins discovered, the present group consists largely of siliquae struck during the reigns of Constantius II and Julian, with the solidus of Valentinian I representing the latest coin in the group. The coins have little wear and the condition of the solidus is best described as mint, supporting the previously proposed deposition date as no later than the mid-360s. As such, the coins from this addendum sit well within the dates and types of coins established by the original find and the first addendum and clearly represent further coins from the same group.

This hoard would bring the total number of reported coins from the hoard to 13 solidi and 196 siliquae. Mixed gold and silver of this date are relatively unusual; for example the larger East Harptree and West Bagborough hoards from Somerset (IARCH-4096EB and IARCH-39DCDF) contained only silver coins. A comparable hoard is the slightly later Little Smeaton, North Yorkshire hoard (IARCH-5C2B05) of 1 solidus of Valentinian I, 8 miliarenses and 175 siliquae to 367-375.

 

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I think almost any bit of provenance information enhances the enjoyment of a coin.

As for my wishes?

"From the TIF collection, a hobbyist who had fun with her coins" would make me quite happy .





































(not all of the above photoshopped coins are mine... some belong to CT friends)

 

As I muddle along collecting (muddling is the most sophisticated method for me), I due create labels for my coin that include provenance, when it is available. This is usually with auction lots, but occasionally also with coins from dealers. I assume that this information will travel with the coin, but of course there is no assurance. The fact is that the vast majority of my coins have little or no provenance, other than references to the dealers they were purchased from, if I can remember.

As for a provenance to my collection or to me personally, heavens no! What an appalling prospect! I am just one of those folks who wish to remain forever faceless. Even the slightest compliment makes me feel uneasy. I guess it all goes back to the water or milk I consumed as a kid. So, if and when the collection hits the market, and I am still around, perhaps a reference such as "From a big pile of stuff in an obscure corner of the Western Hemisphere" will suffice.

 

Like the OP, I would be honored if some day my name were attached to a coin as a provenance. I doubt it would add value to the coin, but it suggests that some perspective buyers would find it mildly interesting that I owned the coin. Possibly because I had become famous, for numismatic reasons or otherwise, but more likely because my collection was considered "good enough" to be offered by an auction house in a named sale.

I think this point is a good one. Some collectors, who are famous mainly for being rich, have their name attached to the coin (almost literally, i.e., on the TPG label) even though they sold it because they found an upgrade and the specimen with the "provenance" label was a reject they no longer wanted.

 

To stir some controversy, which helps keeps threads alive, I'll note that I am currently willing to pay $0 extra for a collector provenance. I know that many people disagree and some pay quite a bit more, even shockingly more, for a "good" provenance. That is fine. I, thus, will never win with a successful bid on a well-provenanced coin as long as I keep collecting the way I do. But, on the other hand, I will be successful on more coins which lack distinguished provenance because the provenance-seekers will choose not to bid.

 

Sorry, I have to revise what I said before, because I remembered the Triskeles price wrongly: I actually paid closer to 70% more than that price, not 50% more. I didn't get that big a discount from the dealer's asking price! But what I paid was still worth it in my opinion, and still less than your estimate of what it might sell for at this point.

 

On the subject of provenance/pedigree, the first coin that I ever shared on CT was this Alexandrian tetradrachm with portraits of Nero and Tiberius, which is still one of my favorites.



I was especially excited about the great pedigree it came with: the auction listing said it was from the “S. Pozzi collection.” I later learned that I had fallen for Leu’s little “Pozzi” scheme…the coin wasn’t actually from the famous Pozzi collection, it was from a 1970s collection of some other collector also apparently named “S. Pozzi.”

I was obviously upset and thought about trying to return the coin, but ultimately, I kept it, because I just really liked the coin. I decided that it didn’t matter as much to me whose collection the coin used to be part of…it’s part of my collection now, and I’m happy it’s there.

But I definitely learned a valuable lesson from this coin: the pedigree in an auction listing is not always accurate.

 

Fitting for an auction house operating under the name of a famous old auction house... that they have nothing to do with

This is a good lesson for anyone who attaches a premium to provenance. Always try to verify the listed provenances and don't take the auction houses word for them. I've seen a number that were in error. I've also discovered some errors in my favor such as where an auction got a provenance date wrong and the cited auction was in fact much earlier than they said.

 

Thanks for sharing your insights. It's interesting to read what the different viewpoints are on this matter. Some specific contributions below that I would like to reply to, but apologies for the long post.

I am, as are you, a collector is historical objects. Isn't it a loss that so little is known of the previous owners of our coins? Assuming that the coins I buy and don't have a provenance going back to the 1970's and before that, acutally have owners and are not dug up illegally...! Of all my coins, I know of only a few venues that sold them before, and I have I think two provencances going back to the last century (read: 1999 something...). Is it because sellers don't want to be mentioned, and remain anonymous? Especially with non-consumable objects such as ancient coins, I'd be interested to know about the history of ownership. Maybe I'm the only one though.

And then there's the value of a provenance. I applaud you Terence, that you are able to find provenances like that. Same goes for e.g. Andrew McCabe who has shared his hunt for provenances on this board before. I should perhaps put more effort into it, but often end up with nothing after a search on e.g. acsearch. Where to begin after that? Also, I don't think any of my coins would have been objects in the more noteworthy auctions in the past, let alone be part of a sellers' paper catalogue.

I've noticed this too. Sometimes, with a quick search, you can find the previous auction where the seller bought the coin from and the price paid. This is indeed the case with retail sellers. I wonder also, if they deliberately don't mention the venue the seller bought the coin from, to avoid getting the price known? Too bad, because it's a gap in a coins' history...

As @Amit Vyas suggest, if collectors'tickets could support digital information about a coin, and pictures/gif's like yours, I think your coins would be very much sought after!

To conclude, I would think that someone interested in ancient coinage would know the difference between 'the limes collection' (again, an example for a name) and a limus falsum. Then again, I read above about the confusion caused by the name 'Pozzi'. Confusion occurs easily, so I'd better come up with a new name... And cheapskate (though I don't think it does justice to your collection and contributions) is already taken ;-)

 

[QUOTE="Limes, post: 8216345, member:


As @Amit Vyas suggest, if collectors'tickets could support digital information about a coin, and pictures/gif's like yours, I think your coins would be very much sought after!


[/QUOTE]
At a rudimentary level, this already exists/is possible. I have coins that came with labels having QR codes linked to online information.

 

These are amazing! Which software did you use?

 

Thanks

I mostly use Photoshop Elements and for animated gifs, one of the many free online animated gif makers (with all the component pictures first created in Photoshop).

 

Very nice work. Too bad Photoshop and other Adobe software now have a subscription model. I still use a very old lifetime licence version of Lightroom Classic. It may not have the fancy new features pros need, but is perfectly suitable for my coin image editing needs. It is still sometimes possible to find copies on eBay, though CD drives are practically extinct on computers now. :-D

 

You can still buy Photoshop Elements as stand-alone downloadable software. I think it costs around $100 US. If you don't mind online programs there are various free online editors that mimic the Photoshop Elements interface and tools (pixlr editor, for instance).

 

Personally, I have a three-step plan to giving my coins incredible provenances.

1. Create a website with stories and photos of all my coins (done). Now they already have some fame. Recently, I bid more on a coin because it was the WildWinds "plate" coin.
2. When my collection is large enough, self-publish a book about my coins. Now they're all plate coins.
3. Become famous, so then my coins are even more important.

 

I have created my own flips for my coins and I have named my collection, so anyone down the line will know where it came from. That is, if they keep it. I have also kept any previous flips with the coin. All of my coins are on Forum's online gallery, which is a great free resource. Several times the previous owner has reached out to me because they recognize their old coin in my gallery. I then update the provenance.

I think in this day and age you should do all you can to preserve a coins provenance, regardless of who owned it previously. I can't see a downside to it.

 

@Shea19, here, from CoinArchives, is the provenance Leu supplied for your coin:

"From the S. Pozzi Collection, privately purchased from K. Alber on 15 July 1972 and previously acquired from E. Dietrich, Zurich."

I don't think this is intentionally deceptive. Leu is stating the provenance in reverse chronological order, as is logical and customary: present owner of the coin is S. Pozzi, who bought it from K. Alber in 1972; before that it had belonged to E. Dietrich in Zurich.

However, since S. Pozzi's collection of Greek coins is so famous, I think Leu might have added a note of clarification: that the S. Pozzi who owned your tetradrachm was a different person from the famous collector of Greek coins that Naville sold in their first sale (1921), and who had been assassinated by one of his patients in 1918.

 

You're not the only one. I always find it interesting when a coin has any kind of ownership history attached to it, whoever owned it -- and even if that history doesn't add anything at all to the coin's monetary value -- if I can find something out about the person named. For example, a Roman Alexandrian tetradrachm of Hadrian with an Agathodaemon on the reverse that I posted last night in the Follow the Coin Theme Game thread, purchased from cgb.fr, came with only the name of the previous owner. I used Google to find out everything else I wrote about him in my coin description, after I confirmed that it was the right person:

"Ex. Collection of Aymé Cornu (1926-2020) (Engineer. - Head of the mass spectrometry laboratory at the Center for Nuclear Studies in Grenoble, France; see https://data.bnf.fr/fr/12598408/aime_cornu/)."

Would I pay a dollar more for a coin with that provenance than I would pay for an equivalent specimen with no provenance at all? Probably. 100 dollars more? No. Nonetheless, I do find it interesting that a French nuclear engineer who lived for almost a century was a collector of Roman Provincial coins. That history adds flavor, although one hopes that radioactivity doesn't accompany it!

 

Yes, for the reasons you mentioned, and many others (i.e.- Pozzi collected Greek coins, the price was way too low for a coin from a famous collection, etc.), any experienced collector should have easily understood that this wasn’t from the famous Pozzi collection. The problem is, not every bidder at these auctions is an experienced collector. At the time, I’d only been collecting for a couple of years and had no real interest in pedigree. When I read the listing, I just assumed that it had to be from the famous Pozzi collection, so I read a bit about Dr. Pozzi (a truly fascinating person), and left it at that. A rookie mistake, and certainly not one I’d make today, but I probably wasn’t the only one who made that mistake. Thankfully, it was a fairly inexpensive mistake for me, and it came with a nice coin and a valuable lesson.

I agree with you 100%, but I personally think it would have been best for them to just not use the name at all. If this collector’s name had been, for example, “S. Polly”, I don't think they would have featured the name as prominently in the listings. I'm a frequent Leu customer and I buy from their auctions regularly, but I think this was a bad look for them.

 

For people that are concerned about the 1970 UNESCO threshold, then provenance of any kind back to that point has some intrinsic value.

Aside from that, the only provenance that would have value to me from an "authentic/fake" perspective would be that which goes all the way back to ancient times (not holding my breath).

Provenance can make a coin more interesting in knowing whose collections it had belonged to and how long people have been appreciating it from a numismatic perspective. But, I'm not willing to pay extra for that little cherry on top.

As for what is "Worthy" of being called provenance, I guess that depends on why you are interested in the subject in the first place. I think most ancient coin collectors prioritize provenance for no reason other than they've been influenced to consider it as important. This then motivates TPGs and auction houses to slap whatever they possibly can into the description for what amounts to nothing more than a marketing scheme.

Long story short, I want authentic ancient coins. Whether they've resided in collections for hundreds of years, or were dug up last week by some kid and sold on Ebay...... I don't care.