TPG Test?

Marshall, posted: "Regardless of the motive, identifying the counterfeits benefits everyone except (????) the counterfeiters, their co-conspirators and their first victims." Think about it. Perhaps you'll want to edit your post.

 

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ACTUALLY IS IT NOT, "THE LAST: VICTIMES THAT GET HURT, IF IT PASSES FROM ORIGINAL PURCHASER TO DEALER then to me, and someone says HA, counterfeit, i am the only loser, not the original purchaser..like a chain letter or hot potatoe

 

You would be protected (provided you keep it in the slab) by the TPG's authenticity guarantee.

 

I suppose I should make my assumption explicit that they are CAUGHT, not that they got away with their shenanigans.

 

Theoretically. But I've been burned by too many insurance guarantees in the last fifteen years to put much faith in those.

They cover almost everything when they sell it to you and almost nothing or peanuts when you submit a claim.

I've heard, " YOU have to prove it was ONLY Falling Water or YOU have to prove it's ONLY rising water or YOU have to prove it's ONLY sewer backup when all three happen in a hurricane.

Times 6 since 2005.

Oh! By the way, it's only replacement value if you build back on the same lot instead of moving to a less flood prone area.

 

NO! When the counterfeiters learn what's wrong with their product,
they fix it!

 

And that is the double edged sword; get the word out to help collectors/ the Hobby and show the counterfeiters what's wrong with their work. One of the reasons I never mention physical/ dimensional indicators in my articles.

But I would hope the TPGs (excluding a prominent one here) would also catch on...

 

The best things you and your group have done is to expose those state-of-the-art fakes that possibly would have gone undetected for a very much longer time. I believe you have convinced the major TPGS's to image coins they slab so they can have a "finger print" file to help detect fakes. I'm sure your consulting work has been a big plus also.

All the TPGS make mistakes. I live in fear each day. One unfortunate result of these better fakes is that very often what might actually be a "detailed" genuine coin is sent out with "no opinion" because there is really no way to be 100% sure ANYMORE.

 

I'm pretty sure that coin in question was imaged. That slab is a gold shield label. There is a "fingerprint" image of that coin currently on file with pcgs.

 

I agree, one of the unintended consequences; I have been a victim recently of a well pedigreed "details" (countermarked) early large cent being returned as authenticity unverifiable. Quite honestly someone well versed with the series could authenticate it but that would take some time...

 

i suppose, how does that work? like i have a Kennedy that says pf70 from pcgs, there is a scratch on Kennedy's face, and also a edge mark on the field where another coin hit it, yet it is a pf70, would they refund me, or do i have to be the original person to order the service and slabbing??

 

I can't speak to that scenario; but in the case you purchased an authenticated counterfeit in a genuine TPG holder like PCGS, the coin would be purchased back by PCGS for the proven invoice price paid. PCGS would then go back to the individual who sold it to you.

 

so an outright wrong grade is not in their guarantee, ok now i know, thanks

 

I did NOT say that! I am not up to speed with their grade or attribution "guarantees", just the authenticity guarantee.

 

OH, sorry misunderstood...i know a lot of companies guarantee thigs, but when you go to get the darn thing they pull a weasel deal on you and give you 30 reasons why "oh this does not apply", just wondering, might just break out this coin i spent 45.00 on and spend it, value is at 70.00 at pf70, but to me it is a pf -61, due to contact marks and scratch from staple or whatever on cheek, thanks john

 

I would post a separate thread with pics if you really want other opinions on it. Beware the "mechanical error" loophole - they can claim a data entry error and they really meant yours was PF07. Etc. The fake 1901-S 25c we've discussed on here poses an interesting question about their guarantee - it was bought in 2011 for almost $9500 and then sold in 2016 for about $6500. So the 2011 buyer lost $3000 on the subsequent sale, and the 2016 buyer is out $6500. Would they reimburse both losers on their authenticated counterfeit?

 

I am assuming authenticity was not an issue for the sale in 2016. The guarantee does not insure a minimum market value of a coin. The 1st dude was made whole at the time they sold the coin. The person that bought the coin for $6500 is a different issue. The buyer has two avenues for recovery - the Grading Company and/or the seller. If they recover from the seller - then the seller is no longer whole and can seek remedies from the grading company. But their remedy would not exceed that which was paid to the buyer. It would work this way along the whole chain of custody/ownership of the coin to the point along this path the grading company issued their opinion of authenticity of the coin.

Just my thoughts on the liability issue.

 

In a recent similar issue, this counterfeit (1694) Elephant token was sold by Stack's Bowers as a "STRUCK COPY". the auction winner submitted it to the TPG and it received a genuine MS-63 grade and slab. It was then sold for let's say around $9500. My article was published on Coin Week and the new owner and the TPG got together and he was made whole. The TPG then went to the seller/ submitter for the $9500 back armed with my article. The TPG was reimbursed, the coin removed from the slab and I was offered the raw example at a negotiated price for my collection.

TPG image:


I actually wrote a 2nd short CW article on this one at: https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/f...uthenticated-counterfeit-1694-elephant-token/

 

Is this what is written in your agreement when sending a coin for authentication and grade?
Leaving all morals aside.
Seems to me the TPG should be held liable not the submitter. He was only going off of their so-called expertise.

 

They paid.