Thoughts on an interesting "1909-S VDB"?

This one has been posted and reposted in another coin forum.

The OP maintains this is a rare "5th obverse" 1909-S VDB with sharp "N" reverse. He even named it as the "whispering VDB" (I got no clue) and stated it was documented in a past book on altered coin detection by Harsche.



Image of the subject coin:



Comparison to the known MM positions:



The "VDB" comparison to a known genuine example:



And a comparison of the obverse to a genuine 1909-S (non-VDB):



The OP also shows the coin in a PCGS holder, but of course the on-line cert has no image or auction reference.





Appreciate any thoughts on this one!

 

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Looks like one got by PCGS

 

Yeah, either PCGS wiffed on this one or it's not the real slab/ coin. I'm leaning toward it being from china as this coin is much better than F-15.

 

It looks like a VDB with an added S making it an SVDB.

 

To me it looks like a 1909-S with added VDB. Very hard to tell from the pics but the V looks too high in relation to D and the B doesn't seem to have the slanted crossbar (or whatever you call the middle). I can't really tell where the dots are supposed to be.

It's hard to believe there's a 5th MM position that the major TPGs don't highlight on their sites. It has to be the most analyzed coin in US numismatics. The only reference to "whispering" I could find is a CU forum where the poster says the VDB is so light that it seems to be whispering.

 

It looks like a genuine 09-S VDB will always have a divot inside and outside of the 0 also.

 

Another image of a '09-S non-VDB a friend sent for comparison:

 

It certainly looks like the 1909-S no VDB MM position well right of the 4 known. But I always hesitate jumping to any conclusion that we know all the dies.

We just know it isn't any of the 4 known dies which share the shallow N. So I would be suspicious of authenticity, but not convinced it is fake.

If it were just photos, I'd suspect a 1909-S obverse and a 1909 VDB Reverse were combined. But I tend to hope there are more honest mistakes than fraud, despite much evidence to the contrary.

But this is the kind of pairing which might also be used on a transfer die set. Obverse coin A and Reverse of coin B struck as a new variety or subvariety. Never underestimate the criminal mind.

 

It does seem odd that any VDB cent, struck only at the beginning of the year, could be paired with a “sharp N” reverse, which would not have available until many months afterward.

 

This makes sense if the records indicate the sharp N reverse was made after or contemporaneous with the elimination of the VDB. By 1909, records about the timing of changes to the design are much better.

As usual, when I venture out of my safe space, something as simple as which N is being discussed Obv (U)N(UM, Rev (U)N(ITED), (O)N(E) or (CE)N(T) exposes my ignorance.

Photo and Transfer dies appear to be ruled out as the source "coin" since the question is about the inconsistency of an individual reverse die. ie could there be a sharp N VDB die produced at the mint, even if unknown. It's a slightly different focus than a Mule pairing of known dies.

 

It's too bad the photos are too dark to get the real details of the coin in question. Maybe we can get an overlay from @justafarmer on the VDB and the MM placement of the non VDB.

 

Yeah, I see that now.

 

Not at my computer at the moment but the OP claims it to be a rare 5th obverse - so I doubt my overlay would reveal a match to one of the 4 obverses I have mapped. Whether there is actually a 5th 1909-S VDB obverse or not - the general coin collecting community at this time only recognizes the known 4 as authentic.

 

It's a 1909-S w/added V.D.B. The guy is certifiable. His coin is "one of a kind". I'm just waiting for the thread to be shut down, as the guy continues to make absurd statements about the coin.

 

No worries, maybe I didn't clarify. I was thinking an overlay on the 09S non VDB to see if it matches the position. We are thinking that the VDB was added.

 

"My contention is that my piece, along with a few others, was specially made at the San Francisco mint in 1909. It was made to be, front and back, like none of the other SVDB's. These special strikings were made near the end of the production run."

Yeah, he kind of goes off the deep end. Refuses to post a better pic of VDB even though his closeup of 1909-S is good enough to recognize the die chip inside the upper loop of S. Not sure what his game is.

 

Confirm the obverse before tearing up the reverse. There is already a conflict between when the VDB Reverses were produced. If they were all produced early before the N was sharpened, that's pretty much the whole story and all that is left is to figure out how the fake was made.

If there is any evidence of a VDB reverse with a sharp N or evidence a late VDB reverse was made after the sharp N was introduced, then authenticity goes back to questionable (though always unlikely - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence).

I'm definitely out of my element here. I'm sure there are mint records which might help.

 

I haven’t seen any S-VDB’s with the sharp N reverse, but there are plain VDB’s and plain S’s with the sharp N.

My 1909-S has the sharp N, though the mint mark on mine appears to be a little further right than the OP’s.

 

I'll see what I can do tonight when I get home

 

Same here. Can someone clarify what this "sharp N" is supposed to be? Is it the bottom right of the N in UNITED? Because on Heritage I'm seeing 1909-S (no VDB) both with and without a pointy bottom right of N. The ones with the squared off N so far all seem to be the low right mint mark position, same as the OP coin.