Sandy Patina: Yea or Nay?

Hi all!

This is my first buy of the year. It is a rather scarce antoninianus of Maximianus, struck by Carausius, with PAX AVGGG reverse in pretty nice condition. These were struck by Carausius in the name of Maximianus in Carausius' attempt to be recognized as the third emperor (along with Maximianus and Diocletian, who he also struck coins for)



However, it originally looked like this, with a sandy patina. Sorry for the poor photos; I forgot to take a photo of it before working on it, so have used the seller's photos that I've badly cropped



In order to remove the sand, I used a toothpick and some water. It was surprisingly easy to get it off the surface

However, the patina is quite patchy, and has some pink/light brown spots. I don't think these are flakes of patina that I've removed, as I didn't clean it aggressively, and made sure to be careful. The coin also has some hard deposits that were not visible with the sandy patina on. I'll see if I can shift any more of these.

I'll probably follow it up with ren wax when I'm done.

That said, I think the coin looks better now without the sand, as I can see more detail on the coin, but am curious to hear what some of you guys think.

In the future, should I keep the sandy patina, or get rid of it?

Also, make sure to share some of your sandy coins, or any others that might be relevant

 

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I like that you can see more detail after your cleaning. The bit of patchy patina though isn't as nice, in my opinion, as the even sand patina.
I wonder, do you think this is one of those cases where the sand patina was added to cover up what was underneath?

I don't have many with sandy patinas. This is one of my favorite coins though and I wonder if the patina was added later. Either way, I like it and that's what is important with our collections.

 

I think that's certainly possible. I never seen London mint coins with that sandy patina, as there aren't many deserts here in the UK

To get the sandy patina naturally, I guess it would either have had to have been buried on a beach (which is unlikely, as the coin would surely have corroded), or been transported to somewhere there is a desert, and buried there, which is also unlikely

 

When I lived in London, I took a trip to Brighton for the weekend. Even the beach was rocky. No sand

 

Nice pick up! ....Sand patinas tend to hide a great deal of anomalies on the underlying coins surface but also obscure the more finite details that could be present...I think it's more down to if the patina has been applied (tongue in cheek) such as some vcoin dealers often do, or is natural?..Sometimes this can be quite difficult to ascertain...I'm not a lover of sand patinas and generally remove it if possible, within seconds you'll have your answer, real or fake...Btw yours looked to have been real but I personally prefer it as is now..
Here's a classic fake sprayed on patina and as to why the seller decided to apply this I have no idea but the result shows a wonderfully detailed surface with very minor surface issues...This was 10 seconds in distilled water with no brushing or picking, the water just turned yellow and out came the coin 'Voila'!...(Maybe someone recognises the coin?)..

I only have 2 other sand patina coins in my collection...
This one I'm sure has a fake patina and one day will get around to soaking it...


This one I'm reasonably sure is real and will probably leave as is..

imho...I think it's down to an individuals preference, some like it, some don't and some will take both....

 

It's not sand ...

 

I have been trying to clean off the sand patina for DAYS, I got a pile of sand, and finally got down to the coin...



RI
Diocletian
Ӕ Quinarius
1.46g 16mm
Rome CE 284-305
IOVI CONSERVAT AVGG, Jupiter stndng thunderbolt sceptre
RARE RIC 193

 

I generally leave the sand patina on. However, there are a couple of dealers out there who seem to always apply them. I won't mention names. In some cases the patina causes the details and devices on a coin to stand out.

 

I've found 2 dealers that do this consistently. I think that both have been discussed on threads here before.

 

Yup.

 

I think these have an original sandpatina , I like 'm

 

I have never owned a sand patina coin due to the epidemic of artificial patination being revealed to me on this forum.

I wouldn't have an issue with patina like this. It's the ones that look like the whole coin has been sandblasted, usually with quite a garish colour, that I do not like.

 

After cleaning, the brown spots are the bronze material of the coin without any patina, which usually shows after cleaning billon. I prefer the sandy patina.

 

From A to Z, an accurate description in this case.

 

@Harry G My personal preference, for your particular coin, is that, I prefer the original desert patina, versus the final result.
However, I think it was an interesting experiment, to see if you could remove the sand/dirt. If, somehow, you had been able to remove the sand/dirt, and if the end result had been a coin with a uniform, dark green patina, then that would have been better, than the desert patina, in my opinion.
I can't tell for sure, but it seems like you removed some of the green patina. For example, on the Emperor's cheekbone and nose, and on the lower part of the Emperor's forehead.
On the other hand, maybe the green patina was fake.
I'm not very good at removing desert patina. In the few instances, in which I've tried to remove parts of the desert patina, using a razor and a microscope, I usually try to remove the brown dirt, and leave the green areas alone, and leave the underlying green patina alone.
Sometimes, I've attempted to remove some of the dirt, which was on the devices, and leave the dirt on the fields alone, if the dirt on the fields is nice and even.
However, so far, I have not had good results, usually.
Like @corvusconstantius I usually try to avoid coins with desert patinas, because I worry that the desert patina is artificial, and I worry that someone was trying to hide major flaws, or tooling, or signs of fake casting. When I see a desert patina, I also wonder, if the underlying green patina is also fake.
However, I have a few coins, which I have purchased, which have desert patinas. Usually, it's because I really like the coin, and I haven't found a nice non-desert example.
I have a hard time distinguishing an authentic desert patina, from a real desert patina.
If I have a coin, which has a desert patina, and if the coin looks good, and if I can see the devices pretty well, then I usually leave the coin alone.
I've had 2 instances, in which I purchased coins, which had desert patinas, which partially obscured the devices. I purchased the 2 coins, because I thought, that maybe I could remove the dirt, which was on the devices, or maybe also the fields. However, when I tried, it didn't go well.
This 1st example, didn't go well at all. If I remember correctly, I think I tried to remove the dirt on both the devices and fields. I used a razor and microscope. However, the underlying green patina came off in some areas, exposing a still-deeper blue or black patina, which was underneath the green patina, and some areas of naked shiny bronze. It didn't look good. Here is the "before" seller photo. This is a Claudius I AE As :

The 2nd example, hasn't gone well, so far. I tried to remove just the dirt covering the Emperor's mouth, using a razor and microscope, but the dirt flaked off part of the field, and now there is a green area on the field in front of the Emperor's mouth, the same green color as the devices. However, if I have time, I may try to remove all of the dirt on the fields and devices of the obverse, and then it may look pretty good, in the end. These are the "before" seller photos. This is a Theodosius I Half Centenionalis Sear 20563, I think :

 

I like very much the desert patina. Unfortunately there are some unscrupulous dealers who paint black coins with some orange product - at least the collector can tell the provenance as if the patina was signed like a Syracusan die.
But this is not a good reason to discard the real desert patina. It enhances the beauty of some coins, or makes details more visible.


Carthage, AE 15 mm, c. 400-350 BC.


Carthage, AE 18 mm, c. 300-264 BC. In this case the sandy patina enhances the details of a very worn coin.

And what about this one?

Elagabalus, Laodicea ad Mare (Lattaqiyyeh, Syria). One of the nicest portraits of Elagabalus I have seen on a provincial coin.

There is also this one :

Byzantine, Justin II, pentanummium from Antioch mint.

 

I have never bought from an A or Z Dealer...

 

Nor have I. Though, it's a bit of a bummer because some interesting examples are in my price range.

 

Real sand patina is neither sand nor patina...it's dirt. By carefully cleaning off the dirt you can highlight the devices. Do some dealers add the dirt back? Yes. Are all "sand patinas" applied? No. Back in the 90's you could get amazing uncleaned coins, from all eras and locations that were completely encrusted in thick, hard dirt. Many were expertly cleaned. In hand it's pretty easy to tell which are real and which are applied. Hereˋs one of mine from back in the day. Original "sand".

 

I like how it turned out, and much prefer a coin without the make up. I picked up an example of this type in similar condition last year, and will post it tomorrow if I get chance.