HELP! Request for information on Omega High Relief from CU

My boss just sold his coin with this write up:


The $20 High Relief “Omega” counterfeits first entered the market around the time of the 1972 ANA convention. Shortly after, one was sent to the Certification Service in Washington, DC. The coin was examined there but the authenticators did not reach an immediate conclusion. Soon, another specimen was submitted. The authenticators held the coins for study and one day while trying to authenticate the coins Michael Fazzari raised the power of his Nikon Stereo Microscope to 40X and found unusual intertwined marks on the eagle’s wing that he had never seen before on any genuine gold coin. Next, he noticed what looked like a “lint mark” in the eagle’s claw shaped like a skull and crossbones. When he showed his findings of the tiny tool marks on both coins where the counterfeit die was touched-up, the authenticators confirmed that the coins were both brand new “State-of-the-art” counterfeits. The Director of the Service, (Charles Hoskins) noted that the mark in the claw looked like the Greek letter “Omega.” Both coins were taken to the Treasury Department where they agreed the authenticators had discovered a new counterfeit. Apparently, the counterfeiter had signed his excellent copy. Today, the maker of this fake and others remains unknown although a column appeared in the Numismatist magazine titled “Mr. Omega Please Write.” Hoskins and Fazzari wished to compliment on his masterful copy. Unfortunately, he never contacted them and the maker of this notorious fake remains unknown. Here is a chance to own a specimen of this famous counterfeit in an ICG Educational Holder.

Wormy tool marks that were found on one generation of fake gold coins, After a short time, the counterfeiters did not leave these marks on their dies.





PS I'm allowed to say it sold for over 3K. BTY, in 1974 I could have bought a gem Unc (by my critical standards of NO TRACE OF WEAR) genuine HR for $4500! I didn't have the money. Yeah, yeah, I know and at one time the movies cost a quarter.

 

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Today you wonder if the TPGs would have spent enough time -- even on a High Relief -- that they would catch something like that. I've always been told that the experts and TPGs can sniff out a fake within seconds because they've looked at thousands but clearly this coin was tough to nail down in the usual 20-40 seconds.

What are "tool marks" --- I never understood them. If they are the left-over marks of tools on the dies, why would someone trying to make a fake do that unless to cover up a bigger flaw?

Yup, the price guide in RWB's Saints book has an MS60 for about $2,500 in 1976 and an MS65 for about $4,500. But that was pre-TPG and I understand the grading got looser in the early-1980's so MS65 then might be MS67 today.

My 1970 Red Book lists an "UNC" MCMVII HR for $950..."EX FINE" for $725......"VERY FINE" for $475. And Proofs or whatever passed then and now as Proof-Like.....$2,500.

 

I wonder if the entire Omega symbol was because of Heston's movie released 1 year earlier ? Maybe the fraudster just liked that movie.

Hmmm....

 

1 More Thing On The "20,000" Omegas...it's possible that the only ones that were able to be sold were the ones made with the stolen die. They may have made hundreds or thousands of others but maybe the quality wasn't up to the originals.

In that case, with the gold price rising over time, you would just get your money back by melting the bad countefeit back into a gold bar or whatever or just getting spot gold for it from a jeweler or dealer who won't pay the MCMVII HR price since it's a fake.

So maybe thousands of fakes WERE made -- they just never found their way into the dealer and coin community and whoever fronted the money got their money back plus or minus the change in the gold price once the coins weren't sellable to the dealers.

 

GoldFinger1969, posted: "1 More Thing On The "20,000" Omegas...it's possible that the only ones that were able to be sold were the ones made with the stolen die. They may have made hundreds or thousands of others but maybe the quality wasn't up to the originals.

In that case, with the gold price rising over time, you would just get your money back by melting the bad countefeit back into a gold bar or whatever or just getting spot gold for it from a jeweler or dealer who won't pay the MCMVII HR price since it's a fake.

So maybe thousands of fakes WERE made -- they just never found their way into the dealer and coin community and whoever fronted the money got their money back plus or minus the change in the gold price once the coins weren't sellable to the dealers."

You are adding to the myths. I told you already, the entire figure of 20K was made up for the TV program! Actually they made 50K and melted the ones that didn't turn out "perfect." SEE HOW IT WORKS? Now in a few years, I'll be quoted by some dummy and 50K will become the new number of counterfeits made made.

GoldFinger1969, posted: "Today you wonder if the TPGs would have spent enough time -- even on a High Relief -- that they would catch something like that. I've always been told that the experts and TPGs can sniff out a fake within seconds because they've looked at thousands ** but clearly this coin was tough to nail down in the usual 20-40 seconds."

** Most folks who have looked at thousands of genuine coins are still pretty good. That's the key. When you see something that just does not look "right" (a gut reaction from an experienced numismatist), the coin MAY not be genuine.

NOTE: There was ONLY ONE coin authentication service in the USA from 1971-1975. Things were different back then:

1. The volume of coins was small. As I remember, we ALWAYS had less than 200 coins in process.

2. There were no time limits or tiers of service. We could take as much time as was necessary to make a determination of authenticity.

3. We used stereo microscopes ON EVERY COIN! That's how we learned what genuine coins should look like AT THE MICROSCOPIC LEVEL! It has taken over forty-five years for the technology used to produce counterfeits to catch up to that type of critical examination. Today, coin's like Trade dollars that were previously authenticated in several seconds now take as much time as ___ minutes under high power magnification to authenticate. The days of the hand lens ended long, long ago.

"What are "tool marks" --- I never understood them. If they are the left-over marks of tools on the dies, why would someone trying to make a fake do that unless to cover up a bigger flaw?"

They are raised marks on a coin. Anything done into the surface of a die will be raised on the coin.

 

Insider, you were on this 2001 show ?



Then I take it you are the guy looking through the microscope (won't mention your name if you still want quasi-anonymity) ?

 

Got it...this I was able to figure out on my own simply because 20K coins would have crushed the market for a total supply of about 12,000+.....of which about 8,500 are graded/survive to this day...but back then, probably only a few came to market every month from the public (not dealers) so even a few hundred MCMVII HR fakes would have depressed the market.

I believe you/your firm noticed the increased supply. When you see 2-3 coins a month (just as an example, not saying that's how many your firm saw).... and then all of a sudden 15-20 a month start showing up.... something is wrong.

Or alot of people are dying and their heirs selling the stuff.

Got it....so it's easy to see something is "off" but that doesn't necessarily imply a fake or counterfeit.

Thanks, Insider !

Yup, the TPGs do NOT do that today. 15-20 seconds per coin on average...maybe a 6-figure coin gets 1 minute, huh?

Thanks, Insider.

Any luck tracking down the Original CU Omega Thread with all the posts besides TTTT's ?

I guess the thread got yanked around November 2020 or shortly thereafter as that's how far my PDF goes. I see some newer CU threads but they end at 2019 and 2020. At least they survive....

 

"GoldFinger1969, posted: "Then I take it you are the guy looking through the microscope (won't mention your name if you still want quasi-anonymity)?

Thanks, Hopefully no one will click on my icon so my identity will remain a secret!

 

I heard from a confidential source that if you wear glasses and act mild-mannered, nobody will find out your identity.

It also pays to work as a reporter for a major metropolitan newspaper.

 

The link to the Insights on Coinage newsletter where you published the whole story on the Omega is
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555418

Your article starts at the bottom of the first page.

OK issue 13 only has the first part of the article, there is more in issue 14 andin issue 15 it says there will be more of the story later in the year. I haven't tracked down the rest of the article. If you need it I'll try and find the rest. I have PDF's now of issues 13 and 14 if you need them.

 

Thanks, I think I lost most of my copies of the newsletter and have only found 2 issues on line. I've looked many times but you guys and the old man who shall not be mentioned are real detectives! So...if you have the time, I should like a link to #14 and Then I'll fill in the rest from where it left off.

 

Issue 13 (1992)
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555418
Issue 14 (1992)
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555419
Issue 15 (1992) - doesn't say much except "more later"
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/555420
Issue 17 is missing from the archive. Issues 18-27 are sequential and don't have anything on the topic. Issue 27 is the last one, from 1996.
I am searching NNP on "Insight on Coinage: Editorial Number xx" and replacing xx.
So the "more later" is either in issue 17 and it wasn't archived, or perhaps the numbering accidentally skipped 17 and it was never published. The issues aren't specifically dated.

It's an interesting story. I'm curious about some details related to this discussion. In Issue 13 there were two fakes that you looked at, at ANACS. You mention that as many as 50 were circulating among dealers in 1971 at the ANA convention. You happened to have two coins to examine in 1973, one real and one fake, which led to the "Omega" discovery. "A week or two later" you received a second fake, which allowed you to compare them and discover the "lint mark" which was then dubbed as Omega.

Then in Issue 14 you say that you received "a few angry calls from dealers for causing lost sales." So it causes me to wonder if these angry dealers had submitted additional examples that were rejected, or if they were merely upset that they had some and their customers were skittish.

Would you now stick with the estimate that there were suddenly as many as 50 bouncing around ANA in 1971? Would you think that there are some authenticated between 1971 and 1973 still sitting in holders? How many dealers had them at 1971 ANA and how many does "a few" angry ones in 1973 mean? I'm trying to get a feel for whether these +/- 50 coins were concentrated among only 2-3 dealers and therefore whether they had a close connection with the source. It seems like they had two years to be putting these into the hands of collectors before word got out.

 

I'm kind of surprised that TTTTs story got as much support from you guys over on the CU forums as it did.

Not saying it should be 100% debunked or him treated harshly.....it's a great STORY but definitely lacking in the kind of proof that most numismatists insist on.

Certainly, D'Antonio's ID does match after-the-fact and that gives him credibility. OTOH, what he talks about and posts about is often hearsay. Some of what he stated was absolute nonsense (20,000 HR coins being struck and/or entering the market).

 

I don't know how (assuming it can be done) that Insider's newsletter can be transformed into a PDF from the portal.

So if one of you did it, can you post the PDFs here ? Just the ones dealing with the Omega's would be OK, thanks.

 

Go to the three links I posted above, click the "..." icon on the left of the newsletter, click the download icon (down arrow) and then PDF.

 

KBBPLL, posted:

So the "more later" is either in issue 17 and it wasn't archived, or perhaps the numbering accidentally skipped 17 and it was never published. The issues aren't specifically dated.

I think Issue #17 must have had something EXTREMELY TOO HOT TO HANDLE
that had to do with "giving dealers a bone." I've downloaded all the issues they had on file and will go through them to see what the rest of the Omega story could be. BIG THANKS to those who found the newsletters.

It's an interesting story. I'm curious about some details related to this discussion. In Issue 13 there were two fakes that you looked at, at ANACS. You mention that as many as 50 [I was totally unaware of these coins at the convention. Later, after being hired at the Certification Service and detecting the fakes, I heard rumors that many were being offered/bought there] were circulating among dealers in 1971 at the ANA convention. You happened to have two coins to examine in 1973, one real and one fake, which led to the "Omega" discovery. "A week or two later" you received a second fake, which allowed you to compare them and discover the "lint mark" which was then dubbed as Omega.

As best I can remember (the newsletters were published when my memory was fresh) We had a genuine $20 that was sent out. The fake remained at the office because it looked funny. In hindsight, it was its color and luster. The fake had a deep gold color with light purple toning and a satin sheen.

Two important things to take away...

1. A lint mark is a very minor strike thru error, strike thru's can occur on several coins in the run. So just because there was an identical lint mark on two coins was proof of nothing. Remember, It was ONLY when I cranked the power of the scope up that I saw what I named "wormy tool marks." This sealed the deal with Hoskins and he took both coins to let Treasury authenticators (who had trained him when the Authentication Service was started in DC) see them.

BTW, when the ANA moved their service to CO, there became two branches of authenticators. Those trained by the Treasury Dept. Bureau of the Mint authenticators - Hoskins on down ; and the others trained by "old cracked eye" who couldn't authenticate himself out of a paper bag and anyone else around at the time. That was the start of their learning curve. All I will say is it took years before the ANA finally assembled an excellent, top-notch group of professional authenticators in the 80's before Montgomery was hired away by PCGS. Fortunately, a solid group of experts remained in CO.

2. the "look" of the fake caused my "gut" to tell me something was unusual about the coin. Neither a C/F nor a genuine coin. In class I tell the story about a dealer who was shown a handful of HR coins from the widow of a high placed deceased Mint official. He could pick only one to buy. When he came to our office with the one he chose he told us it was the one unusual coin so he knew either it was very special or completely fake. It was very special. I was holding the first "gem" Extremely High Relief $20 I had ever seen and at that moment I did not know if it was genuine or some sort of gold fantasy piece! Remember, I was a "rookie."

Then in Issue 14 you say that you received "a few angry calls from dealers for causing lost sales." So it causes me to wonder if these angry dealers had submitted additional examples that were rejected, or if they were merely upset that they had some and their customers were skittish.

The calls were from the two owners who had their $20 HR sent back as counterfeits.

Would you now stick with the estimate that there were suddenly as many as 50 bouncing around ANA in 1971? [NO, answered above] Would you think that there are some authenticated between 1971 and 1973 still sitting in holders? [Absolutely NOT - we were the ONLY game in town until 1975 when the 2nd Authentication Bureau was established] How many dealers had them at 1971 ANA and how many does "a few" angry ones in 1973 mean? [Who knows?] I'm trying to get a feel for whether these +/- 50 coins were concentrated among only 2-3 dealers and therefore whether they had a close connection with the source. It seems like they had two years to be putting these into the hands of collectors before word got out."

Good question and good luck. Most involved are DEAD!

 

Just saw an example change hands for $3500 in another forum...

 

Could have been Insider's boss !!

 

I love that yellow label !!

 

Insider....FYI to help you if you want your posts to be a bit easier to read....if you put everything that you are responding to in quotes using brackets around "quote" at the beginning and brackets around "/quote" at the end, you can respond 1 time or multiple times to the same post and break up the post you are referring to if it is too big to just respond as 1 big post.