HELP! Request for information on Omega High Relief from CU

I'll reply more later. For now, I couldn't find the threads that Doug provided in the "Portal." Thanks all for your help.

Yes, I was the "rookie authenticator" in the CU thread and the first to detect the "Omega" fakes. At the time I joined CU, I was posting as an unknown because it is hard to toot-your-own-horn w/o looking like a know-it-all as some here still believe.

The parts in red are nonsensical, made-up "fluff:"


New
From a 2011 CU thread:

Omega Man Counterfeiter...In the early 1970’s, ANACS (American Numismatic Association Certification Service) noticed an unusually high number of “high relief” coins entering the market. High relief coins are coins that are struck multiple times to produce extremely clear, concise contours. Suspicious that an unusually high quality counterfeiter could be the culprit, they began careful examination of the coins. If it weren’t for a minute “omega” symbol in the claw of the eagle on the coin, they would have never known they were counterfeits.

Like paper money, coins are often counterfeited. In almost all cases, they are very easy to spot, especially by expert coin examiners such as ANACS, using high magnification lenses and microscopic equipment. These counterfeit coins are often molded rather than struck with a press such as those used by United States mints to produce American coinage. The molded varieties always leave tell-tale signs that they are a fake. Bubbles and unusual markings that could not possibly be produced with a coin press are dead giveaways that they are fakes. The Omega coins on the other hand, are indistinguishable from the real thing.

The counterfeiter was dubbed the Omega Man. It is believed that his coins are identical to the real thing except for the omega symbol that he arrogantly leaves as his trademark. The symbol is not visible to the naked high and can only be seen under high magnifcation. In most cases the omega symbol was placed near the eagle's claw on the back of the coin but in at least two cases the symbol was placed within the upper loop of the "R" in the word "liberty" on the front of the coin.

It is believed that the Omega Man has created over 20,000 fake 1907 ultra high-relief United States $20 gold Double Eagle coins worth well over $300 million dollars. His forgeries are of such a high quality that collectors will pay in excess of $1,000 for a single counterfeit coin (the real coins retail for nearly $100,000).

The Omega man also counterfeit other US coins including a large quantity of $3 gold pieces, dated 1874, 1878, and 1882 (with the 1882 version being the most prevelent). He is also counterfeited $10 gold pieces, the 1913-P and 1926-P, both of which have the “Omega” placed upside down within the upper loop of the “R” in “Liberty” in the Indian’s headdress.
The identity of the Omega Man is still unknown.

As you can see, this is the kind of CRAP anyone can post and folks believe it! For example, the 20K figure was entirely made up by the producers of "Secrets of the U.S. Mint" for a TV show where I was interviewed about these coins.

 

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More to comment later -- I'm only about 1/2 through the PDF -- but these quick comments:

(1) Reading the PDF is good, but the entire thread with questions/responses from the other CU posters would be light-years better. I wonder if the thread was only able to be saved with TTTT's comments showing (which would be weird)....or....if someone just saved his comments in PDF form and that is what I copied. Because someone in the thread also only had TTTTs comments in the PDF format just like me.

Highly irresponsible for CU to delete the thread even if it got heated, a bit nasty, and had OT or political stuff injected. Just lock the thread !!

(2) The level of detail from TTTT argues AGAINST it being made-up or a knowing con. OTOH, there are lots of problems with specific details, some of which Insider and others on the original thread appear to have taken issue with. Roger Burdette was apparently there, too.

(3) Big Picture: Why is anybody getting into the fake coin business ? The Mafia and organized crime are into unions, theft, racketering....they are going to make FAKES of an obscure coin (how many people knew about Saint-Gaudens DEs or High Reliefs in the late-1960's ?)....worry about the quality....have a HUGE fixed cost in the raw gold....then have to sell them to experts and dealers who might catch on ?

It doesn't make sense. And 20,000 Omegas ? That would have CRUSHED the market. You can't triple the supply on something and keep the then-current market price of about $500 - $1,000 for MS-quality coins.

Insider, you were there. You noticed the surge in submissions to authenticate MCMVII's. What was the NORMAL amount per month...and then what happened when the Omegas hit ? We talking about seeing 2-3 coins per month in the 1970's pre-Omega and then seeing 10 a month ? 50 a month ? 100 a month ? What ?

(4) There are 2 new CU threads though much smaller than the original. They both end in 2019. At the time, TTTT was saying that a movie or documentary about the Omega High Reliefs was being produced. Any feedback appreciated.

(5) Joe Bonanno, Numismatist ? If Bonanno were a coin collector and was aware of the history of American coins like the Saint-Gaudens, I could see him venturing into this multi-faceted high-risk venture. But I see nothing to indicate that Bonanno was into coins, Double Eagles, or Saints.

 

GoldFinger1969, postED: "Insider, you were there. You noticed the surge in submissions to authenticate MCMVII's. [tHERE WAS no surge - TOTAL made up
BS years later from folks who were not there.] What was the NORMAL amount per month [ZERO!] ..and then what happened when the Omegas hit [Two]?"

They were out in the commercial market though.

 

How many Omega'a are known?
Your best guesstimate?

 

I've seen more MCMVII UHRs for sale than Omegas !!

I'm going to say a few dozen....maybe a few hundred, tops.

JMHO.

 

This thread threw me for a loop. I hope that if @Insider finds his files, I would love to read them.

 

I still can't fathom how me and 1 other person each have only TTTT's comments and not the other posters on the original CU thread. I'm wondering if I copied someone else's PDF that only had TTTT posts.

So much is missing without seeing the counterpoints.

 

What's interesting is that in the Original and subsquent threads....it appears there are references to some 1970's "experts" and authenticators....and I am pretty sure that is a reference to someone like Insider (or Insider2 as he was registered at CU)....and apparently IT WAS Insider/2 but he didn't want to reveal himself either for confidential or toot-his-horn reasons.

It also appears that TTTT had a thin-skin and it was his attacks on others that got the thread shut and deleted, not others attacking him. Pro or con, the more sophisticated and professional collectors over at CU did like the thread and found SOME of the information very useful and credible and possibly even 100% true (not saying ALL of his assertions).

Fred Weinberg, an accomplished numismatist and dealer, even chimed in on the threads under his real name.

 

I suspect that PCGS edited it after the discussion was closed.

 

I do know that if you use a SAVE AS extension to save as a PDF, it only does 1 page at a time. I just saved the much-smaller 8-page CU 2018 Omega Thread and it took 8 conversions to PDF.

That's why I have saved every 5 pages of the Burdette Saints Thread ATS.

 

Insider, a few people in the 2016 Omega Thread say they saved the Original Omega Thread with all the posts. Did you reach out to them ?

Here's the 8-page, 2016 latest/longest follow-up:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/993861/omega-counterfeit-mcmvii-summary-wanted/p2

There's also a 3-page thread, too.

 

Before TTTT knew I was the rookie authenticator that had detected the fakes, he bragged that they were fooling everyone. That part was true as none had been submitted to the FIRST an only (at the time) authentication service in DC.

Fakes can be divided into generations. The Omega coins belong in the early seventies generation. In my experience, counterfeit coins are seen looking one way and then the counterfeiters take a big step to produce a better counterfeit. These new fakes become the new State-of-the-Art fakes that fool everyone UNTIL they are detected. One such improved generation happened when they made gold fakes using the correct as their numismatic price rose way above bullion. These new post-jump fakes become the new State-of-the-Art counterfeits that fool everyone UNTIL they are detected.

In actuality, the "Omega" $3 Princess fakes were in circulation BEFORE the $20 and they went undetected and CERTIFIED until a rookie authenticator detected them. I'm working on the story at this moment and do not wish to spoil it.

 

I stand by my assertion that the whole thing is made up. Does the level of detail in The Da Vinci Code mean it's real? Does the level of detail in Chariots of the Gods? mean it's a legitimate theory? The guy said his goal was to make some kind of movie out of it. I'll reiterate that he did the same thing with the Zodiac killer.

 

I think PART of what he is saying is true. I do believe his real name is now known and his ties to Bonanno were confirmed (I think). Apparently, he also did/does some consulting on the Zodiac Murders out in California or whatever/whenever that thing took place. Guy could be the equivalent of one of those idiot savants in "Rain Man."

At times, his level of detail works AGAINST him IMO because some of the details are so trivial you wonder if he's just filling-in-the-blanks or making it up (doesn't detract from the MAJOR points or Big Picture, don't get me wrong).

 

My recollection of that was that he badgered law enforcement about his wacky theories and that was the extent of it. But my opinions and recollections are admittedly biased, because I flagged him as a kook very early on and that first impression stuck.

 

I wonder if he ever met any of the CU experts in-person ? That would go a long way to clearing stuff up.

 

He visited with Rick Snow.

 

I see his name ATS...Rick is a dealer, collector, what ?

 

He's a big time dealer, author, collector, not sure what all else. He has Eagle Eye Rare Coins and does the Eagle Eye photo seal.

I notice his address is in Tucson so maybe he's a crime boss too. /sarc

 

The Biggest Flaw In His Argument: he says there were 20,000 of the Omegas made and his stubborness on that point (even though in lots of other points he begs forgiveness on a memory going back 50 years) is verifiable over time based on the market price of MCMVII HRs and dealers who dealt in the coins .....NO WAY you could triple the supply of something and not CRUSH the market price. You had just over 12,000 authentic MCMVII HRs and probably most of them survive to this day.

Fred Weinberg, who I do not know but I know is a respected dealer and numismatist, says that a few hundred probably came into the market -- I agree.