Wrong slabbed attribution on a rare large cent variety

For sale in an online selling venue, the owner has been contacted with no response. Coin is slabbed and attributed as a rare 1793 S-16, which it is NOT. Still a valuable coin as an S-13 but not as pricey as the 16.



Combination images of S-16, this one and S-13 as follows; differences in LIBERTY show it is not S-16:




I have tried to make contact with the TPG including starting a discussion on CU at:

https://forums.collectors.com/discu...ttributed-coin-holder-for-sale-on-line#latest

Best, Jack.

 

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Interesting. What's the smoking gun? Is it that ER is supposed to be lower than LIB on the S-16? I can see other differences on better examples, like I pointing to a denticle on S-16 and between them on S-13, but the subject coin is too worn to see.

 

The shape of the "L", the spacing of LIBERTY especially "BE" and relative height position of "B" to "E".

 

To me the most obvious is the uprights of IBE. On the S-13, the upright of B is closer and closer to parallel to the E while on the S-16 it is closer and closer to parallel to the I which gives it a more CC rotation relative to E

The beads at the tip of the cap are also differently spaced and sized for a secondary diagnostic. Both these can be seen on lower grade examples, while other differences can be seen on higher grade examples.

I find it interesting that every one of the three NC-6s was originally attributed as S-16 and now this S-13 is also attributed as S-16.

 

My low grade example was attributed correctly though...

 

Absolutely correct attribution. You started something quite extraordinary the day you posted that. It was the cause of my examining The Heritage Archives and finding the third known NC-6. The 1795 NC-3 find I confirmed for another longtime CT poster and my 1796 NC-2 find are definitely my top three CT moments. Confirming your S-16 is a close Fourth.

Confirming a find is ALMOST as fun as making your own find.

ps - less bifurcation (still has some) of the L on your S-16 is a reason I don't use the shape of the L as a diagnostic. Though a low grade, your S-16 may be the most fully struck of the S-16s I've examined. Most are weakly struck.


pss - This is the best photo yet of that coin.

 

And mine was a Bay find!



I purchased it from the auction winner correctly attributed.

 

Thanks for the additional info, I always enjoy learning something new. I note a comment on CU that they won't do anything about misattribution unless they have the coin in hand. I guess it makes sense if it's something not easily seen from the photos available, but I wonder what the best way to handle something like this would be. Obviously a different scenario than a slabbed counterfeit.

 

Just another piece of the puzzle. I first saw it December 9, 2019 when you posted it to the "Attribute This" thread. I didn't have the backstory.

By the way, I suspected it might be rotated to almost a medal orientation based on obverse damage at 5 and reverse damage at 8.

 

Not entirely true. They will get involved without the coin if there is a big enough check on the line. I brought an 1878 Rev of 79 Morgan they had mistakenly called a proof to their attention several years ago. They can pull the cert on the coin if convinced (their attribution department will get involved) and request the coin be sent to them. One issue is going to be that there's no price guide values for S-16, so determining liability will be difficult unless someone drops the $12K asking price on the coin. Another will be actually getting through to the seller, unless they're the one that submitted the coin for grading in the first place.

 

The discussion on attribution is one thing and seemingly been resolved, but why do you care, @Jack D. Young ?

Are you actually affected by this situation?

I'm just wondering why all the hub-bub. For the good of the order?

 

We're all affected by counterfeits, alterations and misattributions when you are dealing in rare coins.

It's supply and demand and they all affect the supply initially, but the demand eventually if the hobby becomes known as being full of fakes.

It's much like saying why should we care if other people get ripped off? And there are plenty of people in high places that don't. But it's bad for all of us when it's done.

 

Folks, mark your calendars! @Jack D. Young posted a genuine coin.

 

One thing not mentioned is the distance between the beads and the letters of LIBERTY. They are much closer on the S-13 than on the S-16

 

Of course in FR2 the beads are just plain gone. Really far away, if you will.

 

Why would I not?

I love the Hobby; been collecting since my Grandmother and I filled Whitman boards of Lincolns from circulation back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth...

I spend much of my spare time researching and writing articles on counterfeits and their threat to the Hobby and trying to get the word out.

And the Hobby's future is dependent on newcomers who could leave before they find their niche due to a bad experience like purchasing a counterfeit or altered/ misattributed example. And this could be a really expensive experience for someone down the road and could be prevented.

And no, I have no personal stake in this or the perceived "hub-bub", just the right thing to do from someone who knows the difference...

 

Just a follow-up; the on-line listing was re-listed and removed by the selling venue.

 

Great job!! PCGS will get involved but you have to be active. I got into it with a self proclaimed expert over a misattribution which was clearly wrong to the naked eye. I thought he was one of the good guys but he was a complete jerk. He messaged me “why don’t you just buy it and make PCGS eat it”. He’d also messaged: get lost, I’m trying to make a hundred bucks”. He suggested I meet him at the FUN show and said if I was wrong I pay all his costs. I countered, if I was wrong I’d pay him triple his ask, and if I was right he’d pay me $750 for travel expenses….He already had a table at the show, whereas I had no plans to go. He refused. I filed a lengthy complaint with the PNG which of course resulted in nothing as he sat on the board. Ultimately PCGS got involved, the coin went back in and was corrected. As a side note, I had a friend of his that is actually one of the good guys attribute his coin using his photos. He agreed with me…This was so clearly a misattribution my then 9 yr old properly made the attribution. In any event, you can’t go off seller reputation even ones that proclaim their expertise.

 

Thanks @Casman ! Took perseverance but PCGS also just removed the on-line cert. And the seller reposted so this will be easier to have removed this time...

 

Good job!! I don’t get all these numismatic organizations such as PNG. Seems most do nothing to protect the hobby, or just people in general. The rules speak of honesty and fair dealings etc. In my experience it’s all about making a buck.