What Are Your Thoughts on Graded Ancient Coins?

No more so than any other ticket or label that may travel with a coin.

 

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I take mine out of slabs. I don’t drink the kool-aid and the marketing horsepucky of slabs. Most of my coins are well over 2000 years old, and they never needed a slab in their journeys to my collection. Coins were MADE to be in our hands!

Ratings?
1) I like it
2) not today
3) Maybe in the future

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I believe (but don’t hold me to this and hopefully someone could confirm) that they use outside experts for ancients. I know the NGC guys are well respected in the field but I don’t know who ANACS uses for those

 

Good long term protection. It gives your heirs a chance to get reasonably good
money for your coins. That $400 Hadrian denarius that you just love to fondle
will be sold to a dealer who knows very little about it. i hope the seller enjoys
paying for their meal going thru the drive thru, just don't up grade your meal.
Buy the coin, not the plastic. 40 years ago people were moaning about the
on set of TPG's. Do you trust the "glamour photo" of that raw coin? Do you
trust the dealer you're buying from? If you don't like the plastic just break it
out. SET IT FREE!! Any coin worth more than $200 should be in it anyway.

 

I only buy slabbed coins, and I completely agree with this. I've been cataloging sales of slabbed coins and have accumulated large enough datasets to confidently say that most slabbed coin collectors feel the same way. There is huge overlap in prices realized between grades, and the overlap is understandable when you look at the pictures. People are buying based on eye appeal and other factors, not on grade alone. This isn't to say that price doesn't generally increase with the grade on the label, but then again, aesthetic quality also tends to increase in that direction.

Slabbing ancients gives them a commodity like feel to some extent, however, this effect is minimal as compared to modern coins and other collectables. There will never be anything like a "Green Sheet" type of reference for ancients, as the variety, inconsistencies, and a pile of other factors make values base on "grade" rather arbitrary.

Of course, coins being in slabs is less than ideal when it comes to photographing and examining. But, I think that "impossible" is a bit of an overstatement. Unless damaged, the plastic is clear enough that I do not feel as though my view is obscured, and glare while photographing can be handled with appropriate lighting and angles. The only parts of the coin that are obscured are the 4 relatively small portions of the edges where the tongs are fitted. Again, less than ideal, but not that big of a deal IMO.

Selling raw ancients on Ebay would be a tough job, as garnering confidence in the authenticity of your coins would be a severe uphill battle. People that sell coins on Ebay (Even modern coins) are almost required to get them graded to have a shot at consistently getting anywhere close to market value.

I tend to hear a lot about these huge premiums that graded ancients realize in comparison to their raw counterparts, but in my experience, I have not been convinced that this is the case. With slabbed coin price ranges in mind, I have participated in auctions in search of raw silver coins (I still stay away from bronze) with the intention of having them graded later. I never tend to win anything because the coins go for around the same price, and if I'm going to pay the same price, then it's silly (In my case anyway) to not wait for something where the fee has already been covered.

 

Most auction houses as well

 

I think that the whole slab vs anti-slab debate will never be settled because we like to believe that one side is correct and the other is incorrect, and that the other side is just not understanding something. However, the difference in preference isn't about ignorance, lack of knowledge, or being influenced and/or mislead, it is simply about different tastes, goals, and approaches to collecting.

I've enjoyed participating in, and considering points of views presented in many debates on this subject that have occurred in these forums. I believe that I've identified some generalized characteristics that can be associated with each group, and might provide some middle ground in understanding each other. I have a tendency to get wordy in my posts, probably to the point of TLDR in a lot of cases, and I've been working on being better about that. So, I've summarized my abbreviated observations in this table:

 

I will concede this much to you on the topic, photos of slabbed coins are pretty crap when it comes to applying graphic art techniques to generate pleasing presentations. I was so impressed with @Deacon Ray 's coin photos that I decided to document my collection in this way as a reference guide for people that view my collection in person. Come to find out, no matter what I do with the tabs, the presentation just ends up looking kind of stupid

 

Like everything in life there are pros and cons to slabs vs raw coins. I agree with a lot that has been said above and disagree with some. I've got a bunch of unslabbed GB and ancient coins that were purchased when I started collecting and I don't mind handling these or showing them to others coz they won't lose a lot in value (they don't have that much to lose in the first place). But would I break out a CH MS 5/5 & 5/5 Ptolemy III Octadrachm (Mnaieion) just to be able to touch it or show it to friends who might damage it......NO WAY!!!

Donna, the analogy between a masterpiece (Painting) and a coin is IMHO somewhat misplaced I’m afraid. Firstly, no one will even allow visitors to photograph a masterpiece with flash leave alone touch it’s surface. Secondly, it is commonly accepted that such pieces of art would degrade over a period of time and restoration by an expert is very commonly accepted, it will even enhance the value of the item. Not so with a coin. Any human interference with it’s natural state would dramatically reduce it’s appeal and value. Thirdly, paintings or any piece of art is always protected by a barrier to prevent human interference and ‘interaction’.

And while I don’t buy a coin, I really like, for it’s future appreciation in value or as an investment, I’m sure my heirs would not appreciate it if I squandered their inheritance on worthless junk or bought expensive and mostly fake coins on eBay in the hope that they might be genuine. If and when they visit my grave, I’d prefer if they put flowers on it rather than the smelly stuff one grows flowers in.

In today’s age of virtual shopping and technology, many of us buy coins over the internet without ever seeing it or touching it in real life. Can anyone say they haven’t bought a fake or that they can identify a fake 100%? When even the most reputable TPGs and auction houses can get it wrong, then one has to extremely vain to think that they will always be right. I’ve bought fairly expensive raw coins from several of the most trusted auction houses for ancient coins, which were later identified as reproductions/fake and were returned for a full refund. Had NGC not raised the alarm, I’d be happily and stupidly handling these coins every day thinking I owned the real McCoy.

NGC/PCGS/ANACS can all get it wrong but the chances of them identifying a fake are infinitely higher than me doing so, or even the experts on this forum.

I’ve vociferously and repeatedly expressed my disdain, on this forum, over the descriptions of one reputable auction house which deliberately overlooks defects in it's listings. A TPG would highlight all these issues, scuffs, test cuts, banker’s marks, edge bumps, brushed, cleaned etc. etc.

As for photography, one just has to see the photos of slabbed coins by Heritage to realise that quality can be achieved with a little effort.

But like everything in life, at the end of the day it’s a question of personal preference. I prefer a high value coin to be slabbed coin because I don’t have to rely on lady luck, guesswork and my own inadequate knowledge in trying to figure out if the coin is genuine or a fake. Having said that, I don’t buy a slab, I do look at the coin itself for it’s visual appeal, style, strike, toning and flan shape etc. Learned a lot on this forum.

Just like I’d rather take a Toyota Land Cruiser off-roading on a desert safari instead of a Ferrari 250 GTO, I’d rather have rare and high value coins (modern and ancient) slabbed and not exposed to damage.

 

the slab trays are a bit small for some ancient money

 

Without reading any of the replies, here is my take..

I don’t personally have much use for grading in ancient coins, there are just too many variables in play for a grade to have a lot of meaning.
With that said, NGC does an admirable job and have a good system in place considering the task at hand.

I prefer my coins raw and unslabbed so I can handle them. This adds directly to my enjoyment of the hobby. I would only slab a coin if it were extremely high value and/ or fragile, or I have doubts about the authenticity and want it looked at by an expert.

Slabbing and grading certainly don’t hurt your expected resale value, and the case can be made it’ll make a coin more appealing to a certain type of buyer on a certain type of venue.
Less experienced or investment oriented buyers may prefer slabbed/ graded, while I personally feel more comfortable with slabbed if dealing with an unknown, untrusted or non-specialist seller.

 

I have owned several thousand ancients across about 20 years and in that time I have bought 3 slabbed coins. I freed the first coin and disposed of the slab and the label as it added nothing to the coin in my eyes. I have only paid a premium for the slabbed coin over a raw coin once and that was an example where the attribution on the slab doesn't match the coin inside as they had misattributed the coin. The third coin fits firmly in my collecting focus and is still in the slab. I have considered removing it from the slab several times and have held back for now. I am undergoing a major overhaul of my filing system and that may well force my hand as the coin cannot sit in it's rightful place in my collection if it remains in the slab.

Regardless of my feelings about slabs - my coins are of numismatic interest to me and are sufficiently low value that the NGC fees simply don't make sense. The vast majority of my collection are <£250 with a large number <£100 I cannot see that spending £23 per coin for the Economy service or £45 for the Standard Service to get them slabbed is economical.

 

As a newbie to ancients, I don't own any slabbed ancients. Mine are all housed in Saflips. But, as a world/U.S. coin collector I own around 30 slabbed coins. That being said, I like the protection a slab gives plus a little piece of mind as to grade, etc. With ancients though, I have found I like them raw. I display them in an album and can rearrange them in the page easily and 2x2 pages allow for a page of 20 coins. With U.S. coins I see low priced coins slabbed, I'm assuming as part of bulk submissions, but I think this is unheard of with ancients? I won't say I'll never own a slabbed ancient, but the fact is, those slabbed ancients are above my price range. If the time comes to own a particularly expensive ancient, I would be inclined to buy it slabbed as I do with expensive/rare U.S. or world coins. My family knows nothing about coins with the exception of looking for "W" quarters and the fact I've told them 1964 and before dimes and up are silver. They know less than this about ancients. To this end, should I unexpectedly perish with no estate planning, I've told them who to take my collection to to sell. I think with the current value of my collection, they'd fare just about equally if the collection was slabbed or not.

 

There's definitely some value there, although none of it is guaranteed, and a photo certificate would really serve the same purpose other than the physical protection of the plastic case (perhaps a bit overrated given the market preference for "old cabinet toning").

Unlike a regular NGC slabbed coin, NGC Ancients doesn't guarantee authenticity, or even attribution.

 

I do not need my coins graded by someone else. What I do need is a method of authenticating coins as genuine. That's all I want. If the slabbing folks cannot authenticate them as genuine I have no use for them.

 

Agreed. But without admitting it they indirectly, 'almost', somewhat, kind of authenticate them.

NGC would not grade a coin if they had serious doubts about it's authenticity. I've had 2 turned down and saved me a great deal of money. Over to you Barry........

 

One good point/ all coins originally where born (hammered od milled) in mint state. Though some had flaws due to worn dies/ poorly engraved dies/ planchets that where defective/ inept workmanship.
Use for commerce/ touching coins surfaces caused wear and tear/ thus most MS examples turned into what we now grade as Good/ Very good/ Fine/ very fine......
I have been following auctions religiously for 20 years/ the high quality material seems to be what everyone wants. I honestly cannot fathom why anyone would want to handle/ touch a MS Vespasian Aureus? Your eyes are what you use to see beauty. A car/ like a 427/435 HP 1967 Corvette is beautifull to look at, but it needs to be driven to keep everything in top order/ much like our human body which needs to be exercised to maintain your physique/ looks....
John

 

Well, there's no hinting involved - they do authenticate them, and won't slab anything they have any doubt over. There's just no guarantee. If you somehow found out later that one of your NGC Ancient slabbed coins was not authentic, your only money-back recourse would be to the seller you bought it from.

 

I don't know if there is a method for authenticating ancient coins. If there was, it would be easier to hire coin-experts. Just 2 months training with the method and it's OK ! Experienced collectors, dealers, scholars, archaeologists can detect fakes. For common "tourist fakes" it is easy. For sophisticated fakes, especially in gold and silver, it is much more difficult and uncertain. Sometimes you cannot be 100% sure it is a fake.
Some serious experts will tell : fake ! while some other not less serious ones will tell : authentic. I have seen this. A friend of mine used to say : There are no authentic coins, there are only well-made fakes. Unless you have unearthed them yourself in an archaeological dig, you can never be sure! And be careful, a prank is always a possibility (I have witnessed this).
A good method for gold is analysing the metal : Gold is always mixed with other metals in small proportions, and the exact composition of the alloy is characteristic of provenance. If your Greek gold stater includes even a very small proportion of another metal which is typical of South American gold, it's a fake, you can tell 100% sure! But such an analysis is not for the average collector

 

Seems like it would be in their best interest, so long as the costs were within reason, for NGC to foot the bill and remove this type of slab from public circulation. I certainly wouldn't disparage anyone for making this type of mistake on occasion, as determining authenticity has to be nearly impossible under some circumstances. But owning the mistake when it happens would just be good business, as reputation is the only real thing that they have going for them in the end.

I actually knew a coin dealer at one point that had a collection of blatantly mislabeled, misgraded, etc modern coins from the major grading services. He always bragged about how he was going to use them to blackmail the companies out of huge sums of money. I wonder if that ever worked out for him?