Ethical Question about Buying/Selling

No dilemma for me. I try to cherry pick all the time off ebay. If a seller does not like it they should learn about what they are selling - they probably will not do that since then they would be posting cleaned and corroded or polished all the time. Now my local dealer encourages me to cherry pick - has even told me that they only do some of the major attributions(like 1824/2 in large cents) and to pick away. I even game him the chance one day to reprice a coin - told him that at other dealers the varieties are going for twice what he had it listed for. He just smiled and said good choice. He knows by allowing us to do this we will keep coming back - makes it fun to.

 

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I can understand where this situation would cause great concern for you. However, I want to believe that you don't assume that all sellers that come to your place of business have the knowledge or expertise that those folks do, but you treat them as equals buying or selling? So how does this affect your business practice of providing a seller with an current and fair market appraisal or dealer ask/bid or does that only apply to situations where they are paying you for the appraisal ?

 

I am not 100% positive of this, but I think my dealer does it based off what he appraises the grade of the coin at. Note that this does not include the variety - he may, but I do not know - include some of the major known varieties. Not sure how other dealers do it - and I certainly would not sell them an R-7 coin priced that way. It will be interesting to see how the dealers on this site handle it.

 

going off topic a bit further here, I want to tell you a short story. Some 15 years ago, I had a small collection of Raw Canadian coins left after the bulk of my collection was previously sold off. These few coins are in todays market worth a few thousand dollars. Their rarity has not changed, nor had their FMV. Well this Coin appraisal fellow/coin dealer came by my place to look at the coins. I pretended to assume no knowledge of their rarity or value. His final written appraisal was $200.00 (which could not buy a single piece) . Was this fellow unethical in this situation? I paid him for his appraisal. Oh yeah I forgot to mention, after I did decline his offer as the appraisal was with the intention of selling the coins to him, if I was happy with the appraisal. I asked him to let me think a day or two on it. Well, not a day since the appraisal, he called me asking if I wanted to sell. I politely told him no and explained why....................there was dead silence on the phone and than he was gone. Unbelievable.

 

Unethical in one of two ways:
1) Intentionally undervaluing coins in hopes of buying them for that value, or
2) Incompetent, yet holding himself out as a paid appraiser.

 

I can't answer that question. I would have asked him if he considered rarity and what grades he determined them to be? Where and how did he get his pricing? I would have kept it friendly to understand his appraisal. If he undergraded and could not explain it to my satisfaction - then I would say Yes he was being unethical(same for varieties and rarity, etc.). But if he was reasonable and told you exactly how he came about the prices then I would not call it unethical(assuming explainations were reasonable). It is really tough to answer that question without being there and seeing how things went. When I sold to my local dealer I flat out asked him how he got some of his prices on individual items. A few were high in my opinion - but he said he could see them quick for a profit. Some where low - he might have to put them on the dealer network. But most were reasonable and at greysheet bid prices - he showed me on a couple of them. I was happy and he was happy.

 

When I buy coins I try to be as straight forward as possibile. I have found that it's much easier to tell someone the truth and make an honest buck then to lie to them and make a few more. They seem to tell their friends when you treat them right. (not to mention don't throw bricks through your window) Obviously I'm in buisness to be profitable. If I can't make 10%-20% on a coin I'm not going to buy it. I explain this up front to everyone I do buisness with. I have never charged a customer for an appraisal. To me it's a service to my customers.

Honestly it seems to help my buisness. People like being treated like human beings.

As far as pricing I like most dealers use a couple of instruments. The greysheet like any other guide is just that a guide. I also use my experience in dealing with other dealers whom I trust and also my experiences at the bigger shows. It takes a while to develop your "coin market barometer". But from just listening, asking questions, and observing what happens at the larger shows you can get an idea of what's selling for sheet... and what's not. Sometimes the sheets are WAY off. That's what's reflected in my pricing both buying and selling.

 

He made the mistake, I suppose...

 

I assumed nothing less of you LD. You have always reflected that behavior here as far as I am concerned.

 

Well unfortunately this fellow is in the employ of a sole ownership of a numismatic establish for many years. So I felt he knows his business, and chose to attempt to take advantage of this situation. Awhile went by, and eventually I approached the owner with this information, and a full reprimand was forthcoming . I occasionally do so business there, however only with the owner. He pretty much knows we are on the same page.

 

The "Ethical" solution

I'm one who STRONGLY believes in ethical conduct, and by nature often advances gratuity when receiving unexpected "value". The recipients will virtually always provide an expression of disbelief, often offering to return the "gift", or asking for a reason. I will virtually never provide a specific reason, as it would be "unethical" to humiliate another, or create an atmosphere of degradation because of lesser knowledge about a specific subject. I generally reply that I've received additional value, for which I'm compensating. One who has strong ethical beliefs, normally will instinctively act respectively, without hesitation, as most having such instinct would not "poll" prior to extracting another creature from adversity. Thus, my lack of understanding an ethical dilemma. Do ethical values differ when considering liberty, life, manners, material, etc. ....? Now, I believe that may be an ethical quandary! Just my humble opinion.

 

Coveat venditor (may the seller beware).

The way I see it, he posted a picture of the item he was selling, you bought that item, if the seller was unaware it was worth more than what he was asking, that's his problem, not yours. I don't see how keeping it is the least bit unethical (arguing that this kind of thing is unethical by extension would make all cherry-picking unethical, by the same standard).

Do you think it's unethical to buy something at a garage sale that turns out to be worth significantly more than you paid? Even if the seller was completely unaware (or just didn't care) of the true value?

If your conscience bothers you too much, you could pay the seller the difference I suppose. But I don't really see an ethical problem here. A fair price is one both the buyer and seller voluntarily agree upon, not necessarily one that represents what the item is worth. If you want to give the guy more money that's your prerogative of course but I wouldn't judge you as unethical if you didn't.

 

Imho

This has been a very interesting read for a thread topic and I also commend you for your concern and taking the time to question "If". I have sold coins and I do research them before sale as much as I choose too and decide what I wish for them, sometimes one sells and someone tells me of a variety they got out of the deal and I always think good for them. Personally I would probably have been more content if they hadn't told me, but even beyond that it really doesn't change my view since I received what I wanted anyway and I always make sure to congratulate them on their find. When I go hunting for coins I seek out many dealers and many times I get something I know to be worth much more than I payed by many times over. But I would not ever mention something to the source of where I made my purchases, since I have studied what I love long and hard and find that I have been fully honorable and paying what they asked of me. As a note though, if they offer me a price and I know it to be worth more value I will not try to fetch a better price than the offer. Now, some of the places I frequent often the employees will ask me how I did on a hand full of coins and I always reply some were nice, but most were just common and that I collect just because I enjoy it:thumb:

 

Best answer bar none. A true proffesional....

 

I agree with that... but the OP never lied to the seller to make him think the item he was selling was worth less than it actually was. The question was more if a buyer has an ethical obligation to inform a seller that he's selling for less than what he could get for the item. My personal belief is no, he doesn't. If you want to offer more to ease your conscience, feel free... but I don't see it as wrong not to. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in taking unfair advantage of someone; but I see it as the seller's responsibility to determine what an item is worth, and decide how much he wants for it, before trying to sell it. As long as the buyer isn't dishonest with the seller (ie., knowingly lying to the seller about the item's worth) I don't see anything wrong with buying something for less than it may be worth, if the seller willingly sells it for that price. If you disagree, by all means go ahead and pay more. But just as I see it as the buyer's responsibility to know what they're buying, I see it as the seller's responsibility to know what they're selling. As long as neither side is knowingly being dishonest to the other and the item is being sold at a price both sides voluntarily agree to, I see no ethical dilemma on either side of the transaction here. "Coveat emptor" and "coveat venditor."

 

And I like your answer too Troodon....

 

I think Troodon nailed it. If Schatzy did not know about the no s dime when he bid, then the equation changes from what I understood it to be. If both parties have equal knowledge and reach an agreement,there is never a really any tension. Both people acted with equal knowledge of their own free will and the transaction does not have any ethical implications. Contrast that with the appraiser that appraises the coins and then offers to buy them for the appraised price. That is classic conflict of interest and is completely unethical. The interesting question arises only if Schatzy knew about error, or the transaction was not arms length. all considered, hard to see how this was anything other than a bit of good fortune.

 

I figured this set to be regular clad. How do you know its silver?

 

Mike I was JUST going to compare this to an old lady story I heard one time... :hug:
But seriously, it's yours. It's called a cherry pick and I would certainly be happy with it.