Why won't NGC recognize this?

I recently submitted some coins to NGC.

I paid for VarietyPlus service to have the company recognize (on the slab label) a "wide date spacing" variety of the South Korean 1969 Five-Won coin.

Here's what I'm talking about:
The image on the left is the "narrow date spacing" variety, recognizable by the last '9' directly below the "E" in "KOREA." The image on the right is the "wide date spacing" variety, recognizable by the '9' directly below the space between the "E" and "A" of "KOREA." If you look at the numerals and their shape, there are also differences.

I talked to the head of the South Korean Mint's design team in the summer of 2019, and he believed there was a change in the matrix dies that resulted in two date spacing varieties of this same date. It was in late 1968 and into 1969 that the Korean Mint first began sinking their own working dies, in-house, instead of importing them from overseas, as in the case of the three previous years' strikes. Perhaps that had something to do with this?

Anyway, NGC sent me the coin back like this:

It has no recognition of the variety, although I described it as a "Wide Date Spacing Discovery" on the submission form, as advised by the NGC employees at the World's Fair of Money show in Chicago in August.

The "Narrow Date Spacing" 1969 Five-Won are very common, and in high grade. You practically NEVER see "Wide Date Spacing" 1969 Five-Won in mint state grades and full "red" anywhere, although you can somewhat easily find circulated examples. And I've been after these for over 15 years...

Does anyone know WHY they did not recognize the variety? Would I have to submit both a Wide and Narrow for them to see the difference? Anyone know why they refused to recognize the variety? Do they recognize differences in date spacing or numerals, or is it too frivolous of a feature for them?

Here's a closeup of the coin in the slab:

 

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If the variety is not part of NGC's Variety Plus program, they won't recognize it upon submission. If you are trying to get a new variety added, that is something you would need to negotiate with NGC prior to submission for grading. I don't know who is exactly in charge of the Variety Plus program, but I would start with David Lange.

 

I would bet that ANAC's would do the variety search for you.
That sucks, prolly even ICG.
I like the tones on that coin.

 

It's what @Lehigh96 said. It needs to be a variety they already recognize. If some rep at the show told you to submit and pay for a variety that NGC does not have in its system, they made a poor mistake. I'd call and try to get a refund (or talk to someone who could add the variety to their system-although that could be a big challenge if it's not well known or in some text that they can reference).

 

As it is a discovery piece, would that not qualify for some form of recognition?

 

My guess is their variety database is mainly for US coins. I would call them or write them an email and ask them the questions you have as they're all valid questions and while you're at it ask them for a refund. You may not get one, but they should be able to answer your questions. Maybe they grade Korean
varieties but your specific coin wasn't graded by the right person, idk. good luck!

 

I like the tones on the coin, too, but it has that darn spot toning that lots of S. Korean copper coins have.
Yeah, I think you're right about ANACS and ICG; thanks for reminding me!

 

Thanks for the information.
The VarietyPlus designation is only $15, so I'm not all that miffed about it.

While it seems that NGC is being a little cautious and not quickly attributing varieties (which I can appreciate), THEY have a HUGE image archive of all these coins that people have submitted for years now. To recognize this variety would be easy, wouldn't it? Just compare this coin to previous 1969 Five-Won coins and see the spacing and numeral differences. Or do they have to rely on someone who mentioned it in a book in order to absolve themselves of responsibility, in case they can't believe their own lying eyes?

As far as "getting it in some text that they can reference," I'm working on that:

...but, shhh!
Just keep that between you and me, okay?

 

That's what my thinking was...

 

It's worth a phone call to NGC. I am going through something similar.

 

Okay, why a PHONE CALL? I have emailed them and have gotten answers a couple of times before. Does a call work better for such issues?

 

Have them list it as a discovery piece!

 

Absolutely. With NGC, I have found that a phone call will give you much quicker results, and oftentimes they will put you in direct contact with the person that needs to make it happen.

 

Did NOT know that!
Thank you!

 

hi Mlov43,

I find this, and that's it on this subject, And I'm guessing the author of it is you due to similarities of the name.
https://www.money.org/collector/use...ve-won-34-wide-date-34-and-34-narrow-date-34-

I'm not sure how you get it cataloged as a variety for it to be recognized, except to get it cataloged somewhere. they just have 3 on the NGC site for Korea in total.

KK503(1894) LARGE CHARACTERS 5F
KK503(1894) SMALL CHARACTERS 5F (this is the odd man out for the year, but the two different varieties)

1967 EXTRA VERTICAL BAR IN "HANGUG" CHARACTER WON

I would suspect, they would need both coins to really attribute one as a variety as a comparison piece, and maybe they don't necessarily have anything to compare with in order to attribute it appropriately. I'm not sure what's going on there exactly. but the comments are right, you'd need to call and speak with their variety attributer, explain what you got and what you want done, and find out what he needs in order to accomplish that.

and if you don't get anywhere with NGC, Call PCGS, and if that don't get you in the right direction, Try ANACS who covers more varieties than the others. main point is to get it recognized somewhere I think and cataloged on a database somewhere.

 

That's what I tried... as recommended on by an NGC employee who helped me fill out my submission form. Didn't work.

 

Well, they DO have one of the largest coin image catalogs of these coins in the WORLD, so why don't they just look at their own images to see for themselves that there are two varieties??

Doesn't this sort of strike anybody as rather curious?

Anyway, you all are correct. I will have to make a phone call.

 

I found it curious they didn't have images of any of the 3 korean coin varieties that they do recognize actually. Seems odd t have no images of them but have them listed.

 

With all the research you done, especially from the source itself, You would be the best grader of the coins, in my opinion. Yes, to ANACS also.

 

I would think that NGC would jump at the chance to increase their data base, especially since you've done the leg work.
I agree that often times a phone call will get better results.
Good luck on this and the book, Mark. Let us know how it goes.