Is this a genuine counterfeit or counterfeit counterfeit?

Good afternoon all
I came across a 1902 Morgan dollar that has the micro O ( which I know was a counterfeit coin that was not detected for many years ) my question is how do I determine weather this is a genuine coin from that era or a counterfeit or that particular coin? Any help would be much appreciated. Also I know these aren’t worth a ton of money I just really like the story behind these coins so I’m hoping it’s a legit one.

Genuine counterfeit micro O or a counterfeit counterfeit? by Darren Edwards posted Oct 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM

Genuine counterfeit micro O or a counterfeit counterfeit? by Darren Edwards posted Oct 9, 2021 at 3:09 PM

 

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Check yours carefully against these
http://vamworld.com/wiki/1902-O_VAMs

 

Thank you for the link will take a look now, I also remember seeing an article on the die markers so going to get it under the scope and report back soon. Thanks again

 

You are welcome

 

I’m going with pretty heavily worn genuine counterfeit

 

It’s looking like VAM-96 but due to the wear is not showing all the markers that I would want it to so I’m still not convinced it’s the real deal just yet. Might stop by my LCS next week and get them to take a better look than I can just to either verify it or tell me it’s no good

 

I really want to go with that answer and some of the die markers appear correct but not 100% unfortunately. I may end up posting pictures from the digital scope tomorrow to get your opinions as I’m still 50 50 on it. Thank you for the reply

 

Calling @messydesk

 

Looks like a "legit" VAM 3, which has a date that is almost in the near position. I don't think the date is far enough left for VAM 96.

 

Thank you for the reply. I will put it under the microscope today to try and verify it further and maybe get some more pictures to post up on here for your opinion. I will be happy if it is as I said I like the history behind this coin even though it’s counterfeit.

 

I took more pictures against the Vam-3 examples. I will post below, your help would be very much appreciated

Vam-3? by Darren Edwards posted Oct 10, 2021 at 4:20 PM

Vam-3? by Darren Edwards posted Oct 10, 2021 at 4:20 PM

Vam-3? by Darren Edwards posted Oct 10, 2021 at 4:20 PM

 

These have a fantastic history that still hasn't been solved. 20 years ago, this was one of the only three die pairs known to have been produced by these counterfeiters. Now there are about 30 die pairs attributed to them. My working assumption is that it was the New Orleans mob, but nothing has been proven.

 

I have only just started learning about them so I’m looking forward to reading more articles on them and finding out as much as I can. It would be great to find out when they were actually made ( which I know is not possible ) any info on them is an interesting read so if you have any further links regarding them feel free to send them over. Mob ties are always a possibility going back into the rough era that these things were meant to of been produced so I’m with you on that one. Did you manage to look over the newer photos I posted regarding the legitimacy of this coin?

 

I looked at your pictures. Still looks like a VAM 3.

It actually may be possible to find out who made them and when. 1905-10 New Orleans makes the most sense to me given mob presence, downscaling of mint staff, price of silver. If I had a lot of time to look into this, I'd start at the Fort Worth NARA looking for arrests related to counterfeiting around that timeframe. They stopped making them for some reason -- they got caught or they didn't want to get caught.

 

By "mob" are you talking about the Mafia ? I know that there was a fairly large migration of Sicilians going to New Orleans back then.

 

Yes. The New Orleans Mafia was established in the late 19th century. The size of the counterfeiting operation required a fairly significant investment, as coins were good silver, and disciplined logistical practices for undetected manufacturing and distribution. If they stopped because someone was caught, then there'd be records of it in the Treasury Department archives. If they stopped because silver got too expensive for the operation to be worth the risk, we may never know.

I picked 1905-1910 because silver was cheap then and people losing their jobs at the NO mint were available. The host coins were still high grade, so not very old. No 1921 Morgans or Peace dollars have been tied to this family of counterfeits. The Pittman Act would have provided cover for the disposal of a lot of these.

If they were careful to make these look older than they were, using only older coins that they could find in good-enough condition, they could have been made in the early 1930s, when silver was very cheap and the profit margin would have been high. The boss at the time was "Silver Dollar Sam" Carollo. In 1934, he was instrumental in getting slot machines installed throughout Louisiana and was running a pretty big illegal gambling ring, which would have been a great way to move the coins into circulation. The low grade of most of these may indicate that they were intentionally worn down a bit to look old before being distributed, although much of that is actual circulation wear.

Max Mehl's 1947 Will W. Neil Collection sale lists a "1900 Microscopic O. Very good, but very rare. Only two or three specimens known," as lot 161. This is the earliest mention of this variety. An uncirculated specimen of a 1902-O VAM 3 supposedly traces to the collection of someone who died in WWII, but this hasn't been corroborated.

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this topic, makes it even more interesting especially when trying to research on google does not bring up a huge amount of info ( at least for me it didn’t ) I will continue to try and research more to see what I can find and might even start trying to collect as many of these dates as I can to build up a set. Thanks again

 

Am not up on VAMs...just never got there or paid much attention during my on-again/off-again part-time amateur collecting days...60 years worth. For all I know I could have some rare/valuable VAM Morgans or other coins and not even know it (but I'll rest with the odds that I don't...at least not rare/valuable ). That said, always had a sharp eye for detail and I have three (3) distinct (and genuine...not fakes) sizes of O-mint-marks on Morgans...have always just called them small, medium and large...not unlike the Morgan S-mint marks of 1878-1882 or so. Is the rare/genuine "micro-O" smaller than a normal small-O...? Since I have several of each, don't know what that means. Could I be rich, or...? No photos yet but can find for dates.

 

Scroll down this link page to additional photos to see the difference
http://vamworld.com/wiki/1902-O_VAM-3