Hello all, I’m hoping to “ask the experts” with regard to two coins. I’m a a generalist when it comes to collecting, often picking up type examples of various ancient and world coins. As a result, while I try to learn as much as I can before purchasing, I’m not an expert in any area. I just recently acquired two world gold coins - an 1820 Spain 2 Escudos and a 1792 Portugal 6400 Reis. I have tried to find all the information I could before bothering y’all. Both were acquired from a collector in Portugal - my first transaction with this seller. His photos were good quality (I included two of them, plus my photos). I paid what I think is a reasonable price and can share it if useful. I’m thinking these coins are genuine, but would you folks mind letting me know your brief thoughts to see if you agree re authenticity? I’ve tried to provide decent pictures of both, including a couple of high-magnification photos. One thing I did find potentially a touch odd was the diameter of these coins. The 2 escudos is around 21.3mm or so, with mass of between approx. 6.7- 6.736 grams while the 6400 Reis is between approx. 31.2mm-31.8mm or so (seems slightly out of round depending on where measured) and with a mass of approx. 14.36-14.395 grams. Weights appear in range, even slightly heavy, but the diameters of both seem to be a bit smaller than published figures. They fit in lighthouse quadrum intercept holders of 22mm and 32mm respectively, without falling through freely or rattling, which I think is a good sign, but neither is a tight fit, and the 6400 Reis seems to make contact in the insert best on the horizontal axis (which makes sense since that’s the orientation with the largest diameter), with tiny touches of light poking through on top and bottom. Apologies for all that detail, but hopefully some of it will be useful. Any thoughts would be much appreciated; I know they aren’t in the finest shape, but I’d be grateful for thoughts/backup re authenticity. If there are additional photos or pieces of information you could use, please let me know. Thank you in advance!
Looking back at this post (I drafted it on my phone), I should clarify that by that "ask the experts", I just meant to refer to anyone in the CoinTalk forum as whole who might be interested - hopefully that doesn't come across as exclusive in any way, as it was intended to be a general compliment to the group given the knowledge and insight I've seen displayed in the various threads I've read since I (recently) joined. I should have worded that better and would change it if I could. Any thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!
Looking at the 2 escudos, and given the specs you listed, it appears to be genuine. As for the diameter questions you raised, it's pretty common for the diameter to vary slightly from coin to coin. Can't help ya much with the other coin as I am not familiar with them at all.
Los dos escudos me parecen genuinos. El peso oficial, en gramos, es 6.7661 gms, oro de 20 quilates (.849, redondeando) y lleva las iniciales de los dos ensayadores assyers para Madrd para 1820: G para Gregorio Lazaro Lbrandero, ensayador primero, y J para José Sanchez Delgado, ensayador segundo. En el año 1820, Madrid utilizó 146 kilos de oro para 15,096 monedas de 2 escudos y 3,247 de 4 escudos.
Muchas gracias por la ayuda y su tiempo, Señor! Su respuesta es muy útil, especialmente por que no encontre muchos articulos en ingles que tiene informacion con respecto esta subjeto. Su respuesta esta el primero informacion encontre con respecto los numeros de monedas fabricando durante el ano 1820, tambien! Lo siento por mi pobre conocimiento del Español (entre otras cosas, me faltan acentos) y gracias una vez mas.
Thanks very much, GDJMSP! This information is very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to respond! Good to know that the diameters vary. The coin also seems to be a bit thicker than Numista and similar sources would suggest (about 1.3mm actual vs 1mm per published figures). I’d imagine the existing information/literature for these coins could be improved for neophytes like me (at least with regard to Iberian coinage) by giving ranges for these stats, rather than just copying the “23mm diameter” and “1mm thickness” that tends to be seen and referenced.
All coins have tolerance ranges for size, weight, and composition that are established by the minting authority prior to the actual minting of the coins, and adhered to for as long as they are being minted. And this has been true for as long as coins have been being minted. But one must also keep in mind that throughout history the tolerance ranges for size, weight, and composition were constantly changing at the whim of the minting authority. That said, what you are saying about most coin catalogs and books only publishing the baseline info is quite true. But that is typically because those writing the books simply don't know what the tolerance ranges are. If one wishes to find out what actual tolerance ranges are for any given coin, they are almost always going to have to look for a specialized book on that specific coin series. And for a lot of coins, maybe even most coins, these specialized books may well exist but are virtually unheard of by most collectors. And are usually only commonly known by those collectors who specialize in that specific coin. These books can also be quite expensive at times because of the limited/small number of copies printed. This isn't always the case but it often is.
These both look authentic to me, but since I fall in the generalist category, like you, I am posting primarily to keep this post current for the experts.
Thanks, GDJMSP! Helpful information all around - that makes a lot of sense. I have one or two other types of collections where a similar situation exists, in that most good information still hasn’t been digitized or is published only in hard copy (either due to lack of demand (e.g., more people cared when written) or because authors quite understandably and reasonably want a well-earned economic reward for their labor). In some ways, I like this, as, despite being relatively young, I’ve long thought there’s no true digital replacement for the feel of a nice tome in one’s hands. I agree that the prices can get quite high, though, especially when demand is high and no economy of scale involved. It’s a tough truth for those of us not solely interested in “mainstream” hobbies - if one is only going to be able to sell a small number of books and have a print run, say, every 15 years, they would need to sell high to have any hope of even recouping costs, and then you also have cases where the last print run was a century ago….
Hi Glass Even if you don't read Spanish, I would recommend that you buy Casa de Moneda de Madrid by Glen Murray. This is the history of the Madrid mint from 1614 when it first opened up to 1868. It has pictures of every coin produced there with year by year mintage figures for every coin, plus detailed info on the fineness of the gold and silver used, the assayers marks and names, individual weights of each coin. On this point it is worth noting that in the early days, the diameter or thickness was not important. What counted was the weight. In a "marco", the standard weight used, equivalent to 23.005 kilos, an underweight tolerance of 0.39% was acceptable. In 100 marcos, this was the equivalent to an extra 3 reales de ocho. These were put aside for the private use of the monarch. If the coins were overweight, they were melted down and reminted. You can order the book - it is not very expensive - from Amigos de la Casa de la Moneda de Segovi (Glen Murray wrote the history of that mint too) PO Box 315, E 40080 Segovia, Spain, www.SegoviaMint.org, info@segoviamint.org or on Facebook Ceca Segovia
Thanks, Bardolph! I’ll be sure to order a copy. It sounds like a useful resource, and I appreciate your having shared it. My Spanish is quite rough after years of disuse (not that I was ever fluent, admittedly), but I imagine making the effort to read some of Murray’s work while looking up technical terms as needed would be worthwhile for linguistic purposes alone.
I looked up your coin in the Portuguese reference book I used by Alberto Gomes. "Moedas Portuguesas e Do Territorio Portugues Antes Da Fundacao Da Nacionalidade". I did find the coin but as GDJMSP and Bardolph stated the mint in Lisboa did not provide the necessary detail you are seeking. A quick referral to Numista.com you have approximately 1.8gram weight of 0.917% gold. That is all I came up with.
Thank you for checking on this and letting me know. However, I think we may be talking different coins. This is a 6400 Reis for which Numista gives a mass of 14.3 grams. I think you may be referring to the 800 Reis coin, which is of that mass. I appreciate the response regardless, though.
