Septimius September!

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Thanks, I took over a hundred pictures and we drove right by the Fredericksburg VNA coin show without stopping. Climbing on rocks has more appeal right now than rooms filled with people but it does make you too tired to deal with photos.
     
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    26. While maridvnvm correctly pointed out that Mars is rare from Alexandria, the god is hardly common from 'Emesa' either. My offering for the 26th is, as usual, not mint state but what I consider a valuable addition to my collection. The problem is that I had trouble picking which 'Emesa' mint Mars would be featured today. Each has something to recommend it. The winner is from the early group with obverse legend ending in COS but showing no numeral. I have not yet found a coin of this die suggesting there was one lost to poor striking. We have seen others that use PEPT for PERT. The portrait is what I consider a serious faced long-head. The reverse shows the standard Mars walking with trophy over shoulder pose but the legend MAREI VICT was only used in the earliest period. Note the particularly long and flowing ties around Mars' waist.
    rg3420bb1811.jpg

    A bit later in style is a round-head portrait with standard COSII legend. The reverse legend has changed to MART VICTOR. A 'feature' I might prefer not to have is a prominent fingerprint on the upper right reverse. It certainly would be nice to believe that this belonged to an ancient owner with dirty hands but more likely it was gained when the coin was cleaned in the previous century. rg3480bb1831.jpg

    Hardly 'best' but always a favorite of mine is this MARS PATER showing a style that is just not standard enough to certify the coin as 'official Emesa'. I consider it ancient and the product of a mint operation that I simply do not understand. I acquired this from a dealer near the bottom of barrel (personality conflict) trading a common reverse in better condition that he preferred to this one. I could not justify paying his price (all his stock was 'retail' times three). I do prefer buying coins from sources I would like to support but for some reason I wanted this coin. I hold out hope that future finds and studies will tell more about this coin than the current label "unofficial?" suggests.
    rg3500bb1660.jpg

    Yes, Rome mint did issue a couple types of Mars denarii but I require a lot more out of a coin from Rome to elevate it to mention during this month with too few days. It is a standard Rome MARS PATER but a flipover double strike as close to being even with both sides matching as any I have seen. Both sides favor the obverse on the left and the reverse on the right. I like this coin even if it is from Rome.
    rj4220bb2026.jpg

    Who will show the other common Rome mint Mars design? Septimius was warlike even for his peer group. Why are his Mars coins not among his most common types?
     
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  4. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Rome mint.
    IMP IIII, MARS PATER
    RI 064cx img.jpg
    IMP IIII, MARS PACATOR
    [​IMG]
    IMP V, dated reverse, laureate bust...

    [​IMG]
    IMP XI PART MAX, MARTI VICTORI
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    "Emesa"
    AVG II C
    [​IMG]
    COS I
    [​IMG]
    Here are a couple with the "COS" obverse. The seconf shows two thin lines.... are they the missing Is?
    MAREI
    [​IMG]
    MARTI
    [​IMG]
    Short legend COS II (they have longer reverse legends so are they earlier??
    MARTI VICTORI
    [​IMG]
    MARTI VICTORI
    [​IMG]
    Standard COS II
    MARTI VICTOR[​IMG]
    MART VICTOR
    [​IMG]
    MART VICT
    [​IMG]
    A somewhat scarcer type in military attire
    [​IMG]

    "Laodicea" does Mars too - IMP II
    MARTI VICTOR
    [​IMG]
    MART VICTOR
    [​IMG]

    IMP VIII - the standard references (RIC, BMCRE) only cite an Aureus for this type but with VIRTVTI legend (see below)
    MARTI VICT
    [​IMG]
    VIRTVTI AVG
    [​IMG]
    Now with the longer SEVER obverse legend
    [​IMG]

    Late Laodicea issue
    [​IMG]

    Barbs.....
    Imitating Rome
    [​IMG]
    "Emesa" fouree
    COS II obverse with P M TR P III COS III P P reverse
    [​IMG]
    It tyrns out I have over 40 Mars coins so have limited my offerings

    MARTin
     
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  6. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I have a provincial for today. Its reverse features a god nobody seems to be able to identify with certainty. He may appear wearing a kalathos or modius on these issues and on such coins, the references call him Serapis. But without the kalathos -- such as on my coin -- Mionnet calls him Jupiter, Moushmov Zeus, Wiczay Genius, Pick "Der Grosse Gott" (the great god), which is the terminology used at the Corpus Nummorum. I don't know who he is, but were he a goddess, he'd be Homonoia with his patera and cornucopiae.

    Though this laureate head is commonly encountered, most of the references note a draped and cuirassed bust. How much detail do we go into when citing references for the coin? I still haven't worked out when "close enough" is close enough. Does anyone have a copy of Lazarenko, Odessos coins from the period of the Roman Empire Part II. Septimius Severus - Geta?

    Severus Odessus AE MB.jpg
    Septimius Severus, AD 193-211.
    Roman provincial Æ tetrassarion, 26.5 mm, 10.12 g, 1 h.
    Thrace, Odessos.
    Obv: AV K Λ CЄΠ CЄVHPOC, laureate head right.
    Rev: OΔHCCЄITΩN, great god wearing himation, standing facing, head left, sacrificing with patera over altar to left and holding cornucopiae.
    Refs: Moushmov 1596; Mionnet suppl. 2, 902 var. (bust type); Varbanov 4348-9 var. (bust type); AMNG I-2, 2262 var. (bust type); SNG Cop 672 var. (bust type).
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
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  7. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Septemberius 26th - I was going to save my (only) Mars type for the last day, since it is the first ancient I ever bought (1987) - but since the astonishing array of these types posted by @maridvnvm and @dougsmit above, I will hop in now with it:

    Septimius Severus - Den MARS PATER ZA RIC 46 1987 (0).jpg
    Septimius Severus Denarius
    (194-195 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP IIII, laureate head right / MARS PATER, Mars walking
    right, holding spear in right hand, trophy over left shoulder.
    RIC 46; RSC 311; BMCRE 84.
    (3.23 grams / 18 mm)
    AZ Mar. 1987
     
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  8. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Septemberius 27th - Annona on a denarius:

    Septimius Severus - Den. Annona RIC 107 Oct 2018 (0).jpg
    Septimius Severus Denarius
    (197-198 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    L SEPT SEV PART AVG IMP X, laureate head right / ANNONAE AVGG, Annona
    standing left with corn ears and cornucopia, right foot on prow of galley.
    RIC 107; RSC 37
    (2.00 grams / 16 mm)
    Oct. 2018
     
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  9. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    27. As we near the end of the month, I have to be careful to insure certain favorites make the list. Earlier a few 'less than official' coins were shown including a fourree. Today's coin is from the group that are not/can not be official but that are not plated. The 'profit' in making them would have been smaller leading us to the belief that they were made to serve as money in a place that was short on change. Today, two of our local grocery stores have posted signs saying cash payments must be in exact change since they can not get enough coins to support business as usual. The Credit Union we use told me that they have no shortage of coins but they do not have commercial accounts of the supermarket size. It is a bit confusing. So is my coin for day 27.
    Septimius Severus, AR denarius, IMPCAELSEP SEVPERTAVG / COS III PP Mars, bearded, standing right, ex PeteB, 1998
    re3390bb1737.jpg

    I consider this coin to be of reasonable style but it is just not a match for any of the regular, recognized mints. The metal seems (has not been assayed) similar to official coinage but it is a bit thin/light at 2.2g (as are some coins of Alexandria). Most strange is the combination of the 'First Legend' obverse (193 at Rome but as late as 196 at Alexandria) with the date COS III (202 and later when Rome was the only mint). There are many unofficial coins that will never make complete sense. This is one that happens to have been cut by a better than usual craftsperson.

    First back-up position is a copy of the standard Rome mint type showing Hercules. While the coin has a small flan losing much legend, there is no reason not to believe the obverse was correct for the issue L SEPT SEV PERT AVG IMP IIII but what remains of the reverse legend is IOEPES. The die cutter replaced the lion skin with a simple cloth. The bow is a bit strange reminding me of a Rhythmic Gymnastics ribbon but I'm sure that that thought is colored by this being an Olympic year. 3.0g. ex. Brian Kritt, 1998. If anyone has any idea what IOEPES was meant to be, please share. rj4400bb1678.jpg

    Compare it to a standard issue Rome mint coin HERCVLI DEFENS showing a perfectly fine lion and recurved bow worthy of the god. 3.3g. Stacks (Coin Galleries), 1987. This would be a nice coin were it not for the weak strike on the laurel wreath and Hercules legs. There was not enough metal to fill both dies.
    rj4410bb0233.jpg
     
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  10. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    Another regularly depicted type at the eastern mints is the "Trophy of Arms". Some are scarcer than others. I don't have any from Alexandria - I call on @dougsmit to fill that particular gap.....

    These start with the first "AVG" issue at "Emesa"

    INVICTO IMP TROPAEA II
    [​IMG]
    INVICTO IMP TROPAEA - Die match to plate coin in BMCRE
    [​IMG]
    The we have the AVG II C obverse with INVICTO IMP TROPAEA
    [​IMG]
    As mentioned previously we see a shortening of these reverse legends over time. The type does appear in the COS II issue but I believe this to be one of the earliest in the series due to the length of the reverse legend.

    COS II - INVICTO IMP TROPA..
    [​IMG]

    The legend then shortens to the common INVICTO IMP. I have several of these and shared my nicest one above. I will share a different version here.
    [​IMG]

    IMP CAE L SP(sic) SEV PERT AVG COS II
    [​IMG]

    The last of the types for COS II is the dated type TR P III IMP V COS II (first I is a Gamma)
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    The type also occurs in "Laodicea"

    IMP-II, INVICTO IMPER
    [​IMG]
    IMP II
    [​IMG]
    The type also comes with the dejected captive
    IMP-II, INVICTO IMP
    [​IMG]

    IMP VIII
    INVICT IMP
    [​IMG]
    Longer SEVER obverse - INVICTO IMP
    [​IMG]

    With captive
    [​IMG]
    With captive and shield
    [​IMG]

    Then there are the later "Laodicea"

    Obv:– L SEP SEVERVS PER AVG PIV IMP XI PAR P M, laureate head right
    Rev:– AR AD TR P VI / COS II P P, Two captives seated back to back at the foot of a trophy
    [​IMG]
    there are other intermediate issues culminating in
    [​IMG]

    I also have a Barbarous issue imitating a COS II, dated issue
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I was not planning on using this coin this month. I have posted it many times on Coin Talk but the fact remains that 99% of all 'serious' ancient coin collectors would not have it in their collection. Is it the 'best known'? Show me another. I wish I knew someone who would like it when I am gone. Kreuzer, 1994. The legend MP is faint at reverse right so we know it was INVICTO IMP rather than a TROPAEA version.

    rf3800bb0893.jpg
     
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  13. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    I will freely admit that Alexandria is my weakest of these mints and I don't actively collect them at the moment. In fact the majority of my Alexandrians my hit the market in the coming months.
     
  14. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    A lesser seen reverse type at the eastern mints is Roma seated. It occurs at both Alexandria and Emesa.

    Obv:- IMP CAE L SEP - SEV PERT AVG, Laureate head right
    Rev:- ROMAE A-ETERNAE, Roma seated left on shield, holding Victory in right hand, spear in left.
    Minted in Alexandria. A.D. 194
    Reference:- RIC IV 350G; BMCRE 323; RSC 615

    [​IMG]

    For the Emesa type the errored legend POMA is more common than the correct ROMA

    Obv:– IMP CAE L SEP SEV PERT AVG COS II, laureate head right
    Rev:– POMA (sic) [A-E-T]ERNA, Roma seated left on cuirass, holding Victory in right hand, sceptre in left (shield behind)
    Minted in Emesa. A.D. 194 - 195
    Reference:– BMCRE pg. 97. * note. RIC 414 note. RSC 614 var

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    If we are going to mention it, we may as well show it.
    ROMA
    rg3835bb2078.jpg

    POMA
    rg3832bb1057.jpg
     
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  16. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    28. Septimius Severus is said to have selected his wife Julia Domna because her horoscope said she would marry a king. This makes the crescent and stars type of 'Emesa' doubly interesting. There are two legends available. Rare and represented in my collection by a poor specimen is AETERNITAS AVS coupled with a COS ii obverse die. There is a high grade example of this reverse coupled with a left facing obverse but I was too stupid and did not buy it when I had a chance years ago. I have no idea where it is now or what it would bring today. There is also a very nice die duplicate of my coin that has sold several time in the last two decades. I hope it finds a good home where it is not just an investment bauble.
    rg0025bb1653.jpg

    Much more common (only scarce?) is the standard SAECVL FELICIT.
    rg3850bb1332.jpg
    Look carefully between the center and bottom stars. That thick spot is the central compass point used when laying out the die. Now look at the coin below. On this die that layout dot was not erased by a star. Some people make the error of thinking this is another and catalogable feature. Layout dots are part of every die and never cataloged but 99% are erased by something dead center in the design. This type has nothing in the center so the dot remains on some dies.
    rg3840bb0599.jpg

    The type does come for Julia. If you look closely, you might see the central dot crowded into the central star at 5 o'clock.
    rk5410bb0868.jpg
     
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  17. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    This one is not a AETERNITAS type but does have a couple of factors that make it interesting to me at least.

    It isn't "Emesa" but comes from the "Laodicea" IMP II issue. This reverse type not previously noted from this mint in any of the published references. Additionally this PERE is the first time that I have seen this variety of the obverse legend, which is normally seen as PERT, PERTE or PERET.

    Obv:- L SEPT SEV PE-RE AVG IMP II, laureate head right
    Rev:- SAECVL FELIC, Crescent and seven stars..
    Minted in Laodicea-ad-Mare. A.D. 194
    Reference:- BMCRE -. RIC IV -. RSC -.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    ...and there are several smaller dots among the stars in addition to the centration dot which I see hanging on to the right side of the top point of the bottom star. I hope, but do not expect, someday to see a mint state, smooth surfaced coin of these dies. It is very, very interesting.
     
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  19. maridvnvm

    maridvnvm Well-Known Member

    The BM example with PERET, different reverse die also seems to have the dots in the fields. This coin is also mis-attributed as a COS II example which probably explains why it is missing from the references.

    mid_Capture_01380.jpg
     
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  20. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Septemberius 28th...unlike the bottomless, marvelous collections of @maridvnvm and @dougsmit I am almost out of coins of Septimius Severus.

    And so, struggling towards the finish line, a denarius featuring Genius:

    Septimius Severus - Den Genius RIC 201 Jun 2017 (0).jpg
    Septimius Severus Denarius
    (206 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    SEVERVS PIVS AVG, laureate head right / P M TR P XIIII COS III P P, Genius standing left, sacrificing out of patera over altar, holding grain ears.
    RIC 201; RSC 475; Sear 1776.
    (2.29 grams / 18 mm)
    eBay June 2017
     
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  21. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The style of the portraits from this period IMP II and the later COS II coins does suggest a link between the mints. The tiny dots only on IMP II and a few other things suggests to me that they were separate mints. Perhaps the travelling mint with COS settled down in wherever 'Laodicea' was located? The more I learn, the less I 'know'. My new goal is total ignorance. That goal seems achievable. The two IMP coins have different patterns of these dots but it is too soon to say they are random. The BM coin has a distinct pattern of two mirror image sets of three.
    Yes, I can see how someone skill in making assumptions could catalog this coin as a COS II. Did they also miss the PERET? I have never seen that on a COS II coin so that should have been taken as a clue to read the letters.
     
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