Paper Money TPG's - Opinions please

I collected United States paper money back in the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's before anyone certified banknotes. Red seal star notes, Nationals, Obsolete, low and fancy serial numbers, you name it.

I submitted a few Nationals to CGA when they started up in 1998 and felt they did a pretty good job, but that's all the experience that I have had with "slabbing" paper money. 99% of my collection was "raw" in Mylar holders and that was fine with me.

I have been more into coins for the past 10-12 years but have decided to get slowly back into banknotes. I can't resist...

CGA appears to have become the ANACS of paper money certification, stuck in third place behind PCGS and PMG.

I would appreciate it if people here could share their opinions of the three paper money grading services so I can get caught up. I realize that many of you HATE certified banknotes and that's fine too.

Please vote and share your opinions so I can get back up to speed.

Thanks! HiHo

 

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PMG or PCGS only please.
CGA has really fallen off the wagon.

 

I havent even heard or seen CGA lol
PCGS or PMG

 

What I will say on or about this thread is that Graded notes are a persons personal choice. When you entertain the thought of purchasing a Banknote for thousands of dollars, the certification of that note to be genuine is an important variable for me.

TPG's are in business to make money and have what they think are qualified experts to provide an opinion on a printed Government Security. Opinions are just that,an opinion and everyone has one!

While I do own a significant number of Graded notes, both PCGS, PMG and 3 or 4 CGA notes, I really buy the note that I am after. You see when reading the census polls and you find that the Fr# 100 seems to have less than 100 notes known in all grades, are you going to be so picky to say, Ohhh it's in a "xxx holder" and I do not like them so I'll pass.

If you want or need a note to satisfy your collection, then get the note. If you do not like the holder, take it out. I have many many raw notes that are Gem, however, they are newer Series and it does not take a Rocket Scientist to know that they are Gem. Centering, Margins, Corners, Edges, Sharp printing details, crisp feel are all indicators of a excellent piece.

In some cases, I will opt for an AU 55 or 58 over a 60-61 graded note because it simply looks better and to me eye appeal is 9/10ths of the battle.

The story behind CGA is a matter of opinion as well. In recent months, it has undergone new ownership and I can only imagine what an uphill fight that will be. Hat's off to the man who is trying to do this. TPGs are simply reputations that provide consistent results with unbiased opinions, or well that's at least how I think they should be....

So my vote goes to a choice you do not have; buy the note not the holder.

One more thing I would like to add as well, "satisfy your own desires" after all, it is your collection.


RickieB

 

Excellent analysis RickieB. I agree wholeheartedly. All of my notes are raw. However, even my uncirculated Star notes and the like are Silver Certificates, and newer Star notes not worth a huge sum like yours. Nearly all of my notes with exception of the Large size one's would cost more to have graded than I paid for the note. So I don't have any plans on certifying my notes. I get them from a reputable dealer and am very satisfied.

 

I really don't do paper but I set up (at the show) with a guy who does.

I really don't do paper but I set up (at the show) with a guy who does. From what I hear much was overgraded to start and now though better you must (even more than coins) take each note as it is with or without the certification, what else is new?
Paper can more easily be doctored I've seen one or 2 of the best there are do it, not the process unfortunatly but the end result. Of course this would not apply to most notes unless before 1934.

 

Excellent advice.

 

Go with PCGS or PMG if you feel the need to have authenticated. A lot of great advise has been given here but many of the top notch collectors are tap dancing around the very sensitive TPG issue. The facts are as follows. CG"X", was ownwd by a con artist and would provide doctoring services and huge "upgrades" on notes for a share of the "take". This is very well documented. Period. There are so many doctored and overgraded notes out there in CG"X" holders that the integrity of these notes are just gone. In fairness, the previous owner is a world class currency man. Just "on the take" with his many unscrupulous dealers.
As RickiB stated, the new ownership has a real challenge on their hands. Generally, once a business reputation has been destroyed, efforts to restore are futile but they may eek out a living. Will never become a real player again particularly in light of the fact that the new owner has little paper money experience. You will most likely never see major currency houses accept CG"X" graded notes again due to that past integrity history.
Pretty brutal response I know but, you asked. My opinion.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I believe you meant to end the first sentence with "...if you feel the need to have graded." There is a difference between grading and authenticating.

The problems you discuss relate to the grades assigned by various companies. I hope you are not implying that any of the grading companies have intentionally authenticated notes that are copies, counterfeits or otherwise not genuine notes.

The TPGs have had problems with authentication of items when they venture into areas they are not familiar with. Reprints of obsolete notes and depression scrip reside in holders from TPGs without identifying that they are not original notes. I do not believe they are intentionally trying to fool anyone when they did so, their graders did not have the expertise to identify the reprints.

 

I stand corrected lettow. I should have stated "grading". I have no reason to believe counterfeit or copied notes are being authenticated as real by anyone. Just stating that CG"X" has been accused numerous times of over grading for a "fee" or a percentage of the next sale.

 

This is a very touchy subject, But comes down really to what your personal
Goals are, Myself, ! started out collecting "Raw" uncertified notes several
Years ago though i had an excellent high grade collection there was no way
To tell how good it was or compare it to someone elses including if it was
Real!!

Since i have a huge amount of money tied up in my collection it just made
Since to take it to the next level and get thing,s TPG, Now thats all i collect
Mainly just PCGS in my opinion there the best!


Some may disagree and that,s fine, Everybody has there own opinions but being
Able to find the best of anything is always a challenge and at the end of the day
I will know two things, One my notes are authentic and two there the highest
Grade i can find, Why because the experts say so!!

 

If it's an extremely rare note, it would worth having a TPG's opinion of its authenticity; but as for grade I don't buy that any TPG's opinion is worth more than anyone else's opinion. So I only get notes raw unless there's reason to question its authenticity.

Not that it's relevant for most of what I collect; I collect mostly world notes which are rarely especially expensive even in uncirculated condition. For notes people bother to grade, I wouldn't pay any more for a 66 than a 65 and I think it's just downright silly to make such fine distnctions in what a banknote's condition is; I think uncirculated, about uncirculated, extra fine, etc. is good enough really. To assign a precise numeric value to a completely subjective opinion is something I've always seen as just downright rediculous for coins, even more so for banknotes.

 

Well i guess the bottom line here is what your in to, As for me i
Try and seek out the best possible Mpc i can find, And thats all
I do!!! All my efforts are focused here!!:whistle:

If you do not care about the quality, I guess raw would be ok
Been there and done that! Dont get me wrong there are just
Not alot of 68,69, and 70,s floating around my world, So i
Always try and get these common or not does not make any
Difference to me:hail:

 

Oh, I care about the quality. But being in some piece of plastic with a number printed on it doesn't make the note any better quality than that exact same note would be without it. What I don't think is worth paying for is somebody's opinion of what the quality is; I trust my own opinion thank you. I'll look at the note myself with my own eyes and decide whether the note is worth what the seller wants for it. I don't need someody's so-called "professional" opinion of how good the note is.

Besides if I can't tell the difference between a so-called 65 and a 66, or between a 69 or a 70, (and on paper who can honestly say the can? Especially when the standards vary from grader to grader?) why should I pay any extra for the alleged difference? Opinions are by definition subjective, and as far as I'm concerned the only opinion that matters as to whether or not I buy a given note at a given price is my own.

 

Question? Are you a collector or dealer? The reason i ask is because
Your comments seem to be more from the dealer end of it, Though i
Do deal in Mpc my prime focus is as a collector there for i focus on
The best of the best and trust the TPG of PCGS and would say that
For PMG as well as far as anybody else would not even consider a
Purchase there!

As you say its about opinion i say its a 67 you say its a 68 thats
The problem you need a neutral party, Thats why you can buy
And sell "SIGHT UNSEEN WITH TPG" this can not be said for
Raw notes VF, EF or otherwise!!:goof:

 

Very much a collector, not a dealer. On rare ocassions I may sell parts of my collection I consider to be surplus, but any profits from such sales go right back into my collection.

I would never buy anything sight unseen, whether it's a banknote, coin, house, car, etc. Like I said before, I trust nobody's opinion when it comes to buying something other than my own. I'll look at the note or coin or whatever, and decide for myself whether the condition merits paying the asking price. And to call TPGs a "neutral party" is a joke. They stay in business by convincing people that their opinion is something worth paying for. They have a vested interest in buyers and sellers thinking that it's better to buy something "professionally graded" than raw. To say that makes them neutral is like saying advice from a car dealership on whether you should buy a car or just ride public transportation is a neutral opinion. Yeah right.

I submit you shouldn't buy sight unseen, period, whether it's raw or not. As for selling, personally I don't care; I buy with the intention of keeping what I buy in my collection for the rest of my life. What my heirs do with my collection after I'm gone is their problem.

As for paper money, I say it's uncirculated or something less than that. (Which as far as I'm concerned is what others would call 65 to 70. Less than that or some minor damage it drops to almost unicirculated. The grading I do is for my own benefit and I use my own personal standards. I don't intend on selling anything so I don't care if my standards agree with anybody else's.). To makre a distinction between 65 and 66, 69 or 70, or whatever I find pointless and pretty much rediculous. There's no set standards for this kind of thing, and no two graders (not even within the same TPG) have the same set of standards. If numbers don't mean exactly the same thing to everyone, they don't mean anything at all. And if they don't mean anything, they're not worth anything. Thus, the service of providing something worthless is also worthless. I know a lot of people disagree with me, but that's why I think the services of TPGs are a waste of money and I'll never pay a single penny more for a coin or banknote than I'd pay for the exact same item raw.

 

I tend to agree with Troodon. I am not sheep, I think for myself. I decide if I want something, based on what it is, not what somebody else says it is.

I don't own a single graded note. I doubt I ever will, unless it's something that I question it's authenticity. And at that, I doubt I would keep it authenticated, and I couldn't really afford something like that anyway.

 

Just a different way of Approaching one,s collection i guess, But thats
Ok! Everybody has an opinion :loud:

 

That,s why TPG were invented!! For people to know what there getting
And the value of that item!! Ive seen many people buy on e-bay
Items that were misrepresented by the seller as XF and then get it
In the mail and it,s only VF, If you can tell the grade by a picture and
Someone elses opinion, Good luck!! 9 out of 10 times they will over
Represent the note leaving you less quality then you paid for!!:secret:

 

Nope, that's why God gave us eyes and a brain! And it costs you nothing to use them. It's just TPG propaganda that asserts that theirs are better than yours.

TPGs were invented for the sake of people who had no business buying something they didn't know enough about. If you can't educate yourself about grading enough to trust your own judgement, you shouldn't be buying them in the first place. Or at least don't buy anything where the grade makes a significant difference in value.

I don't care if they claim it's red when it's actually green; I look at the note and make my own judgement. If I can't tell from the picture whether the note is in a condition that would justify the price, I don't buy it. If I think it's VF when they claim it's XF... I bid the VF price, and if I get it great, otherwise oh well. If I'm going to spend enough money where the grade actually makes a difference, I wouldn't buy on eBay anyway; I'd take a look at the note in person.