Indian Head Nickles - Type I grading

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by cplradar, Sep 20, 2021.

  1. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum

    ihnickle_type1_1913_aq_2021_obverse.png
    ihnickle_type1_1913_aq_2021_reverse.png

    To me, this is one of the hardest coins to grade. I got this coin, raw, from a vendor at a coin show. I thought it was a gem MS type I Buffalo with a terrific strike. It has huge luster and it was picked it up for about 70 dollars. We probably got ripped of as usual. I got it and sent it off to ANACS and now it has come back graded as an MS64.

    In the hand I didn't see and problems with the coin, but upon photography it, they become apparent. The feathers are weaker than I thought and the top of the buffalo head is soft as well. It has a soft eye.

    But another thing that showed up to me only after it was graded and photographed is that this is the first coin I ever owned with a rotation error, in this case it is about 10 degrees!

    ihnickle_type1_1913_aq_2021_reverse_showing_rotation.jpg

    ANACS didn't notate it.
     
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  3. Mannie gray

    Mannie gray Member

    The spots likely killed it.
    What's going on at 5:30 on obverse rim?
    Looks like it may be a planchet issue.
    That probably didn't help either.
     
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  4. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum

    I didn't see the defect on the rim. Good eye. What spots? I think the nicks that can't be seen readily until magnified, is what killed it from grading higher. Is it possible that the defect in the rim is related to the rotation? It is a very shiny coin, which can't be seen in the images.
     
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  5. Mannie gray

    Mannie gray Member

    There are two spots to left of feather and what looks like some gunk to right of bottom feather.
    Also a spattering of small (likely saliva) spots to the left of the neck. Those will likely get worse over time, might develop white halos around them eventually.
     
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  6. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Also, a little weak strike on:
    The Rev: Buffalo's left front leg. Along with some 'action' ie hits on there, a main focal point.

    Obv: Hair above the braid, appears to be weak.
     
  7. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum

    it has come back graded as an MS64.
     
  8. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    Boy, that's a difficult one. As you stated, Buffalos are hard to grade and TPG don't alway agree.
    I'm a bit surprised it came back with that grade as I would say AU58 due to scratches on the end of the feather, flattening of the bison head, and other signs of very slight wear. ANACS may have gone easy on it due to an exceptional strike though. Just my thoughts.
     
  9. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum

    Those are often areas that just don't strike clearly. When I looked at in my hand, I didn't even really see that. It only became clear in the photography. The coin has exceptional luster for a nickle.
     
  10. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Nice! Here is mine, was in a basement slab marked as MS63. DSCN2902~3.JPG DSCN2905~3.JPG
     
  11. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    that is SOME strike. This one was stolen from us

    [​IMG]

    It was never graded and it is gone...

    [​IMG]

    Looking at it, it was the nicest Nickle I have ever seen. It was plucked out of a box of raw coins.
     
  12. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    I am sorry for your loss. Looks like you got a nice replacement, but I know that is not much comfort.
     
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  13. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    I didn't think it would be so hard to replace it, but at the moment, these are some of the hottest coins on the market. I'm not as good at this as my father was. He had incredible eyes for strikes.
     
  14. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    These coins were saved in large quantities in Mint State. The grading on them can be strict, and at times I wonder how much time they spend on them.

    The OP coin does have the spots, which lowered the grade, and the luster looks to be something less than blazing. For those reasons, I think that MS-64 is as high as the grade can be.
     
  15. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd Supporter

    I think the OP coin was very lucky to be graded at 64. I wouldn't call it that. Razz's coin is hands down a better example and graded lower?? Basement slabber wasn't wearing their glasses that day. @cplradar , too bad on that one that was stolen from you as that one is very nice.
     
  16. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Mountain Man, posted: "Boy, that's a difficult one. As you stated, Buffalos are hard to grade [agree] and TPG don't alway agree.
    I'm a bit surprised it came back with that grade as I would say AU58 due to scratches on the end of the feather [Do not lower a MS coin to AU] , flattening of the bison head [Strike weakness does not lower a MS coin to AU] and other signs of very slight wear [There appears to be a very slight rub (change of color)]. ANACS may have gone easy on it due to an exceptional strike though. Just my thoughts."

    I agree with ANACS, Commercial 64, but not one I'd want for myself.
     
  17. coinquest1961

    coinquest1961 Well-Known Member

    This particular date usually comes with a good to full strike. When weakness is seen it' most often affects the last half of the uppermost and the corresponding front of the Bison's head on the reverse.

    Die rotation is very common on the series as a whole and especially on the 1913 Var 1. Perfectly aligned coins are much more scarce than rotated coins.
     
  18. coinquest1961

    coinquest1961 Well-Known Member

    The last half of the uppermost feather, that is.
     
  19. kountryken

    kountryken Well-Known Member

    That is a spectacular coin. Very sorry you no longer have it.
     
  20. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    I mentioned this because the scratches are NOT bag marks, which to me says the coin had seen circulation, thus an AU coin. Just my opinion, like the rest.
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Mountain Man, posted: "I mentioned this because the scratches are NOT bag marks, which to me says the coin had seen circulation, thus an AU coin. Just my opinion, like the rest."

    Actually, any type of mark on a coin does not automatically indicate it is not Mint State. Mint State indicates free from any trace of wear [loss of original surface luster]. That would include even a hole in the coin because a hole, bagmarks, nicks etc. are not considered friction wear. While we know the coin left the mint before the hole was made (it circulated), it could still be full Mint State as struck but someone put a hole in to it. This is all basic grading class stuff BEFORE we get into the real world of market grading where your comments put you. ;)

    PS many coins I receive in change during the day show no signs of actual circulation wear; and some, especially the red cents would grade higher than MS-66.
     
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