How could PCGS miss this artificial toning here

Since you aren't a lawyer, are we to assume that you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Stop acting like an expert on toned coins, you're not!
Stop acting like an expert on forensics, you're not!
Stop acting like a legal expert, you're not!

 

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I have a degree in metallurgy and have actually used an SEM, and I am telling you that there is absolutely no difference between and oxide layer that formed naturally over the course of decades and one that was formed in a short time period through human intervention. Again, stop pretending to be an expert on subjects that you don't know anything about.

They are certifying that the coin was struck by the mint and is not a counterfeit, thats it.

First, there is nobody to ask. Second, they would need to ask every person who has ever owned that coin going back to the day it was minted. That is an impossible task, and even if it were possible, it would make grading coins so expensive that nobody could afford to have their coins graded.

Again, you aren't a lawyer, stop telling us that the "law is clear," you don't know what you are talking about.

Furthermore, by your standard, anyone who dips a silver coin is committing fraud. The purpose of dipping is to remove unsightly toning in order to increase both the liquidity and overall value of the coin. In other words, dipping alters the coin to jack up the price.

 

For sure.

In the end, a pedigree is not infallible. If I really wanted I could say that some coins were owned by Mickey Mouse before me.

that’s why the whole “pedigree and explanation” for toning is absurd to me. I could pull it straight out of my cheeks and still, no one has any way to show if I’m right or wrong.

 

Regardless to how a coin was toned, if the coin is genuine, it's still genuine. If a buyer is willing to buy a coin for it's toning it's their money. We can't protect everyone from themselves based on our personal values.

 

Did anyone else notice the "intelligence" level of CPL seemed to increase today? I have a feeling his sister was posting under his account.

 

I'm still waiting on you to quote my posts where you claimed I supported this ebay seller. Either find them and post them or admit you were wrong and that nothing was ever said...

 

What does the word "genuine" mean. It might be damaged. Regardless, if someone artificially tones a coin and sells in without disclosing it as such, whether the coin is genuine or not, it is fraud and the coin itself has a questionable status.

 

Genuine means that it isn't a fake. A genuine coin can be damaged. I've read all of the comments in this thread and can't see how artificially toning a coin is fraud. If the coin is not a counterfeit then it's the buyers responsibility to buy the coin or not. The only fraud would be if one sold a counterfeit coin as genuine.

 

It is not absurd. You ask.

• How is this coin toned?
  
• Where did you get it?
  
• Do you have a receipt?
  
• Did you get it already toned or did it happen after you acquired the coin?
• Can we talk to the person you acquired it from.
  
• Can anyone verify these events that caused the toning.
  
• When did the toning first appear on the coin?
  
• CAN YOU ATTEST IN GOOD CONSCIOUS AND AFFIRM THAT YOU TOOK NO ACTION TO INTENTIONALLY CAUSE THIS COIN'S ABNORMAL APPEARANCE?
  
• Why does this coin look exactly like these other coins you sell in toning and appearance

I reputable art dealer or museum can not acquire an object without asking such purtanant question, how can a TPG do any differently? Do they have ESP or Super Powers?

This is neither rocket science or absurd. The heck with this cloak and dagger nonsense. Get real. You have an absurdly toned coin in your hands are you are authenticating. How do you do that without knowing its history?

 

This is getting ridiculous. How does damage stop a coin from being genuine? Colored or not, a genuine coin is not a counterfeit coin

 

then it is not genuine once it is artificially toned, at least as you define it.

 

By the museum? No. Although there have been other issues with authentication sloppiness with museums. Have the pedigrees themselves been falsified, without a doubt. It happens. It especially happened with Nazi loot, and in a variety of antiquities markets. People donate things to the museum and they lie about pedigree and the museum accepts it, not wanting to offend a wealthy and needed donator. The fact that you have it, though, means it can be properly investigated, confirmed and challenged.

 

That is absolutely not true. If a coin is toned, artificially or natural (both are chemical reactions), the underlying metal is still the original coin; only the surfaces are different. That doesn't make it not genuine.

 

Well I have dozens of other experts here that review everything from 10th century Armour, sunken treasures, to coins and they say otherwise.

 

No, they are assigning a grade and YES they certify the toning and give little stars and notes and gold stickers ....

 

Then there is no need to grade it or slab it. Just throw it in the trash.

 

Not true. First of all we are talking about AT toned coins being distributed by single vendor who is perpetrating fraud. So not all coins need to be that detailed in pedigree. You just do the best you can, and for extraordinary cases you do more.

 

IN the extreme case, MAYBE. The industry has standards about what constitutes a natural coin. But when you have a blast white Morgan and someone says... no that has never been dipped. You and I both know that is BS and yes, that is 100% fraud.