How could PCGS miss this artificial toning here

That would not be possible for most coins. Tracking the history of a coin would be very difficult unless it's a well known rare coin. Dealers won't tell you where they bought a coin most of the time and they shouldn't. I would be really ticked at a dealer that handed out my name. That's private information and a security risk.
The TPG's are pretty good at spotting AT but won't get it right all the time. That would not be possible for anyone.

 

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There is no law against artificially toning a coin. It may be frowned upon by a segment of serious collectors, but no laws were broken.

Also, PCGS isn’t the only grading company that has AT coins in their holders. There is a particular eBay seller who sells primarily NGC and ANACS graded slabs with Lincoln’s that are obvious AT. Great Collections also has a great many of these same coins, probably consigned from the same eBay seller. I’ve bought 6 over the last couple of years and so far none of the 6 have been successfully crossed to PCGS due to Questionable Color.

it may be an unscrupulous practice but nothing is being done that will put the seller in jail.

 

https://coinweek.com/bullion-report...ore-than-16-million-in-precious-metals-fraud/

 

That has nothing to do with toned coins so why post it?

 

There certainly ARE laws agaist misrepresenting an article and specific laws that address coins, and then selling them with a misrepresentaiton .... and alas, that includes artificually toning coins, and misrepresenting it as natural toning.

Believe it or not, you can't just say whatever you want in business. Everyone would agree with that and knows that... accept for perhaps a few trolls.

It is not just in bad taste, it is illegal. Artifically toning coins and selling them off as natural toning is fraud.

 

I wouldn't buy it because the seller is a conman. But your open eyes to the facts, and fine personal traits reflect nothing on this conartist. He is still a conartist.

 

The facts are it straight graded with the top grading service. Your opinion doesn't trump what is on the slab. Your opinion on how it toned doesn't matter either because you can't prove how it toned.

 

No it is not. There is no legal definition of AT or NT. Not even the industry experts can agree on what constitutes AT. What is AT and what is NT is subjective.

 

Accept when they don't, like when they missgrade, undergrade, misartibute, miss a counterfiet, need a CAC sticker, and miss an AT coin, practice gradeflation... And you're Mantra is BS. I don't have to prove how it was toned. I am not representing fraudulently artificially toned coins and trying to sell them on the market. They are the ones sitting on a stack of detailed coins, along with the few that slipped though the graders, all looking the same, with extraordinary identical looking toning that fingers them as perpetrating fraud. They, or maybe it is you if you're the dealer, need to explain how these extraordinary things just happened. And PCGS honestly needs to answer for how they got sucked in on this scam.

 

Fortunately, we are not practicing law and ethics with our drinking buddies, downing Rhiengolds, at the bowling alley. In the real law, and in real business, there doesn't need to be any such legal definition of a specific kind of fraud. There has to just be a preponderance of evidence that one sold or attempted to sell an item by misrepresenting the item in advertising or any description that would mislead the consumer about the quality, nature or value of the product.

 

Just because you say its fraud doesn't make it fraud. You don't get to define a legal term into something you want it to mean.

 

No - it is FRAUD when it adheres to the legal definition posted 3 days ago, straight from various statutes, as outlined by practicing lawyers. It can also be fraud when it fits a colloquial understanding of fair business practices, but just harder to prosecute. One thing it is not... it is not defined by some individual on the internet screaming repeatedly, "You can't PROVE IT"... over and over again, like a small child, when faced with an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

And you know what the worst part is... you just don't give a darn about the victims, even though those that are your fellow hobbyists, or relatives or friends from coin club meetings. And you don't care that a beautiful coin that has a mintage population of only 500,000 coins is being systematically destroyed because of these jerks.

My sister, who is a lawyer, is sitting here reading this and she has some choice words on this matter, but can't get a log in. She don't like your legal opinions that much.

 

Accept when it is not.

 

Your, of course, correct about this. But I strongly disagree about the privacy that dealers have with buyers and sellers. The nature of coins and collectables in general, and the ease which they pass through criminal elements without being traced, there should be no transparency. Any coin worth over, say $500 should be open and public. This is already the case for other artifacts. They need licenses, and pedigree and professional assessment.

And when your faced with an absurdly toned coin, even a modern coin, one really.. really needs to know the pedigree and understand how that coin got to that condition. You can't just avoid the tough questions and blindly slap a grade on a coin based on a physical examination of the coin in 20 minutes. If they are going to do that, then they should just declare all such coins as detailed and damaged and let the market deal with it.

 

The reason for privacy is to keep the bad guys in check. The more people that have your information, the greater the risk you have of being a target.
Like you, I lost most of my collection because the wrong person had too much information. A pedigree of all coins over $500 would be a great thing for any bad guys in the hobby. Why hand them a target list?

Going back to toning. The services do all that is possible to kick out what they know to be AT. Different services don't always agree and the same with dealers and collectors. Folks will never agree on this topic.

 

My sister also has a friend who has a brother that has a friend whose cousin is married to a lawyer. They think you and your sister are both frauds and should flush your opinions down the toilet.

 

LOL thanks for that, I almost had a beer catastrophe, I was laughing so hard.
I am sure @cplradar could find a way of calling me a fraud, just to stir the pot.

 

In the case of civil fraud, in addition to several other requirements, there must also be a misrepresentation of a material fact on the part of one party. In order for something to be misrepresented, there would have to either be a legal definition of what is being misrepresented or there would need to be a clear accepted view. There is no such agreement on NT/AT.

NT/AT is subjective. Therefore, how could someone misrepresent something as NT when the experts would disagree on whether it was AT or NT.

 

Yeah - that is not true. So sorry - you loose. There doesn't have to be ANY agreement, only evidence that it affects the market value fraudulently, and that is EASY to prove in a court and generally agreed upon and written by experts everywhere, including the TPGs themselves.

So quit making crap up. This idea that you push, that the details of the fraudulent act has to be explicitly predefined in the statute is STUPID and insults our intelligence.

 

Well, you really got me. I went by what the US Supreme Court has ruled. You said "nopes, only needs this...". You win.