Apology

Hi CT folks-

Hope I'm posting in the correct category...seemed to fit based on what it says it's for.

I want to apologize for my recent rant about TPG. As many of you likely know from my previous comments/opinions, TPG is a hot-button issue with me. I'm both discouraged and disillusioned with it...how it operates, the issue of fees and the inconsistency of it all including different standards from one TPG to another, etc...and will stop there. Understand it is what it is and we must live with it as such, but after thinking more about it I realized I went too far in disparaging the process and the graders, and I shouldn't have done so. My mistake to be sure...not my usual way...and it won't happen again. Thanks. -Mac

 

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I can't comment on TPG's as in all my years I have never seen any need for them. I have seen where others have had bad and good experiences. I hope your experience improves.

 

Meh, TPGs aren't worth the money.

 

Mac, more of us do not like most of the games played with TPGs than you think. Some very outspoken members who refuse to divulge how they make a living ALWAYS throw a fit whenever an opinion such as that is said here, though, and it can make people like us defensive. I did not see your posts, but I imagine they were similar to what has happened to me numerous times here when discussing the same.

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone in such thoughts, even though those who make their living are very adept in making you think you are the only one who feels that way.

Chin up man. Never apologize for what you believe. You can apologize for words chosen, etc. but never backtrack on your beliefs just because someone else is trying to shut you up.

 

Not that it matters, and it is always mannerly to apologize for a zealous opinion that is incorrect and divisive, but, I personally did not consider your comments as offensive at all. The words I would choose to imply my disappointment may not be the words you would choose, but my words would be no less.... and might be more....scathing.

In short, I don't think an apology is or was necessary. My opinion, of course.

 

furryfrog02, posted: "Meh, TPGs aren't worth the money."

Perhaps not for you, me, and many others but TPGS have been a great addition to the numismatic market. They have "saved" more folks than they have "hurt" - GUARANTEED.

You can bitch about cost, speed, and customer service; but grading is a matter of opinion and I assure you from my very limited experience that most folks bitching about the TPGS grade assigned to their coin (except for obvious errors) cannot grade.

 

Those deplorable customers!

 

Oh, I have no doubt that many collectors have, and have always had, wishful thinking grading on their minds. Arguing about a grade is kind of silly, and it's not my issue with TPGs. In fact, most of the time I think their grade is too high.. I think at least half of all 1916d dimes I have ever seen in folders only had the D in the eye of the original collector. Same thing with something like a 27 S quarter, your mind WANTS to see a XF when the coin is clearly a F to an objective viewer.

Its the other shenanigans some TPGs pull which is great for their business model but harmful to the hobby I object to.

 

I've never used a TPG, and likely never will. I don't own a single slabbed coin, but may one day depending on what it is, but more for the assurance it's authentic and problem free than the grade it was given.

I don't really know what to think about the business itself. I'd just say that the cost they charge you, it's for their "opinion". you may agree or disagree with their opinion, in my opinion, but that's what you paid them for, to give you their opinion and nothing else.

I haven't really been too much concerned about the business models or the practices or it's effect on the hobby once I came to this conclusion. Some people want their opinion, some people don't. Some people agree with their opinion, and some don't. it is what it is, an opinion. that's all.

if you are selling a coin to someone they might say it's overgraded still, or someone might see value of a coin they think might be undergraded. it's all still speculative, everyone has an opinion also, just like they do. but I think it did "Shrink" the gap between a buyer and a seller, maybe take some of the uncertainty of fakes/problem coins out, and wiggle room out of a transaction of a coin between two parties.

I would say whenever you discuss a company negatively, you should be careful with what you say or how you say it, they have decent legal budgets, and have little problem in suing people for libel or slander, if untrue of course, that might damage their business. It's not worth that kind of hassle. Nothing wrong with telling the truth and voicing your displeasure with a business, just be sure of what you are talking about is all I'm saying.

 

Always a touchy subject. But there was a time before TPG's that we were forced to learn how to grade if we did not want to get ripped off. Part of the reasons for TPG's is fine, like sorting out counterfeits. But they have taken the hard work of grading out of a lot of peoples hands and just made many folks lazier. Grading has always been subjective so not everyone is always going to be happy with the end results. For sure a rare coin in a slab is going to benefit you when it comes time to sell. But TPG's are not just relegated to coins. There's a TPG for just about everything collectible these days and as B.B. King said "The Thrill Is Gone" from a lot of hobbies.

 

You're both right. A lot of the times the problem is that someone can grade some series just fine, which makes them think they can grade every series just fine which just isnt the case.

I know there's certain series I can't grade, I also know which ones I can. A lot of people lack the self awareness and believe every series should be graded the same from their classic gold to a modern nickel

The best thing someone can do is learn from the TPG grading instead of just automatically claiming they're wrong and they know better etc

 

A major problem is that grading is a PERSONAL thing and many folks have different standards than those of the TPGS. My personal standards are very different from any TPGS. That's because grading standards have changed dramatically over time.

Commercial grading (value) is complicated and takes experience in the market (buying and selling on a daily basis). That's why two identical coins are graded differently because of "market factors" such as quality of the luster. For example, the designation of PL/DMPL is really screwed up and depends on the date of the coin not the depth of its mirror. The majority of collectors do not know how to "market grade."

Anyway, Baseball is correct. Study TPGS slabs to learn the prevailing grading standard.

 

Though I completely understand why people may not like TPGs, I buy only slabbed coins at this point, for various reasons. For someone, like myself, who may not have fully developed counterfeit detection skills, they at least lessen my chances of purchasing an expensive counterfeit. Though, of course, many terrifying examples of nearly undetectable counterfeits have appeared on this very forum that have fooled even multiple experts.

Also, I'm not a nationally acclaimed or well-known dealer or collector. I will likely never be one. As such, I don't have a widespread reputation that will boost a buyer's confidence immediately. So when I go to sell my coins, which I might someday, since I can't use my reputation or name to my advantage, slabs seem to increase the chance of giving buyers confidence in the product itself. Of course, not in every case, but in general this seems true.

Not to mention that slabs with CAC beans mean that more than one expert has judged the coin, which can further increase confidence, though not indubitably. Will the grade on the slab be exact? Probably not, but it will likely be closer and more reliable than my own grading, though I do try to apply some standards of my own even when buying slabbed coins. It's a long and slow learning process and I'm not to the point where I fully trust my own judgment all by itself.

None of the above remains foolproof, of course, but it arguably can help in the long run, especially when one goes to sell coins. So, for all of these reasons and also because I try to buy coins with the hope, perhaps a Quixotic one, of not losing money in mind, I prefer buying slabs.

 

I was a PCGS member for a year. Not worth the money.

 

Well the alternative was to be at the mercy of each individual dealers opinion. Is everybody for that? Some people are never happy. The TPGs likely saved the hobby and do more good than harm IMO.

Lets be honest, like them or hate them, they are human beings closely evaluating coins 8 to who knows?, 12 hrs a day? There's a million factors involved that the best of the best couldn't be put in a room and come to agreement on. Really, what is the expectation? Now throw in some series that are extremely hard to grade into the mix. They deserve at least SOME credit. I've been burned a few times myself.

As far as cost, what should they charge? NGC is still backed up 3 weeks opening the mail at current prices. Should they drop prices and be backed up 6 weeks and piss more people off? If the cost doesn't meet the value, people will have to stop submitting. It didn't used to be this bad. They seem to be over loaded year round now.

 

Boils down to the bloody eye of the bloody beholder...........trust ones own opinion, and not rely on others.

That said, I've many 'holdered' graded specimens, but my opinion, as such, was to agree with their assessment, and not 'blindly' accept their opinion.

 

No one disagrees, I believe, the bad old days were worst. Massively overgraded coins, cleaned coins not disclosed, etc.

My only "wish" would be that the TPG use a third party grading system like ANA and grade versus that. By NOT doing so, they set in motion the "changing standards" everyone admits, and the confusion, regrades, etc everyone talks about. Its good for their profits, but not for the hobby. Verification of authenticity, ensuring not cleaned, and judgment using ANA standards of grades would ALL be valuable things to bring to the hobby. Unfortunately, only 2 of these 3 things are true, (and 0 of the 3 for ancients).

 

@GDJMSP would be a good option for grading ancients. He is actually older than the coins themselves afterall.

 

I heard older than the Yellowstone volcano but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.