It has a big staple scratch on it? Our power has been out since Wednesday, it’s hot and I’m perhaps delirious so go easy. I’d definitely think the answer should be No. I was perusing Ebay earlier today and kept running into alleged BU Unc in the title but the photos suggested otherwise, with a big staple scratch.
When I was young, I thought of "Brilliant Uncirculated" (BU) as any un-toned coin north of MS65...(I never heard of the Sheldon Scale in the '60s). TPG coin grading was non-existent. Now-a-days, BU is often used to describe any uncirculated coin...toned or not. My 1965 Red Book has only two (2) grades higher than "EF"..."Unc" and "Proof". A "BU" coin was an "Unc" coin of exceptional condition and luster (Gem+).
If it's a big/obvious scratch, then it should be a details coin. Like @Morgandude11 mentioned, it could be BU Details - scratched ....it could be an MS 67 coin with a scratch...so technically BU but details...if you believe in "net grades" (that the scratch lowers it, then maybe it would not be BU any more)
Why should/does a scratch render an otherwise nice, legitimate coin to the "details" heap...? Seems that's what many think..."oh, too bad...it's got a scratch...it's "curtains" ("details") for it." There are so many legitimate reasons a coin might have a scratch that I can't count them...a simple accident/drop with handling, thoughtlessly or hastily using a metal object or tool to move it or pick it up, etc, etc. and on and on. And in the life of a 100 or 200 year-old coin, gotta expect some. If it's not an obvious attempt to damage or otherwise alter or change the coin, et al, the coin should receive a straight, if net grade...PERIOD. No more DETAILS for things people can't even see or that are so inconspicuous, etc. I really think graders get their kicks and have internal contests to see which one can render "details" to the most coins for the tiniest and most insignificant reasons. A couple of recent stories of rejections have my blood boiling, plus in recalling those of my own, years ago.
That would just mean that everything is net graded as you cannot infer intent or know how a scratch happens. They don’t, if anything it’s the opposite where they try and net grade very minor issues. The simple fact is many coins do deserve a details grade and should get such.
I agree with you to a certain point. I think some scratches aren't as bad as others and should be treated similar to bag marks or other hits. However, big scratches that are obvious should mean a details grade.
I bought a 1928 Peace Dollar a while back that was superb, but the luster was subdued. I sent it in to be graded, expecting MS66. It came back "Unc Details - Cleaned". I would have felt a little better had it come back..."MS66 Details - Cleaned".
Cleaned is a bit trickier because luster plays a big part in the gem grades. If the luster is subdued, it is much harder to call a coin a 66. I do like that Anacs puts numbers next to their details grades, but even they max out at MS 60 Details.
Obviously, if it is the slightest mark, or tiny little scratch, the coin should not be a details coin. Generally, those coins are net graded as straight grade. However, if the scratch is prominent, then the coin should be detailed. It is a judgement call, and market grading comes into play here, along with the desirability of the coin, that may not be problem free. It is like a rim ding situation—how bad is the ding, and does it create a significant distraction.
We need a "Supreme Court" for coins. (a group of leading professionals without a financial stake in the outcome)
This is what's called "BU++" today... https://www.ebay.com/itm/363498539274?hash=item54a233890a:g:BPUAAOSwSmZhD-wR
There once was a very powerful king that had his men search all of Europe for the most beautiful woman. One was presented to the king, but due to a small scar on her chin, she was rejected. What a shame and waste of beauty.
Regarding the OP's question - since long before the TPGs ever existed, before they had even been thought of, there has been a list of several things that made a coin ungradable. A scratch, a rim ding, a gouge, being bent, a lamination, being holed, filed rims or edge, being clipped or shaved, a planchet flaw, corrosion - all of these things and a few more could and would render a coin ungradable. But, there was also a caveat that went along with, not all, but a lot of them, it was a question of severity, a matter of degree. In other words, this one's bad enough, that one isn't. The entire numismatic community accepted this, agreed with it. And as I said, it didn't have anything to do with the TPGs because they hadn't even been thought of yet. In today's world all of that is still true, all of those things can render a coin ungradable, but there have been a few more things added to that list. Things like harsh/improper cleaning, altered surfaces, hairlines, coatings (lacquer and the like), questionable toning. And, with some of those things it is also a question of severity. As this thread shows not everybody agrees with all of that. But those who feel that way are the exceptions, not the rule. Still today the entire numismatic community does agree with it. And the only time things become questionable is when the degree of severity comes into play, for as was also said, it's a judgement call. In other words, in this guy's opinion it's bad enough, in that guy's opinion it's not. And that brings us to this - In point of fact, the exact opposite is true in today's world. The TPGs of today are far, far, more lenient when it comes to judging severity than they were just 15 years ago. As a matter of fact, 15 years ago they wouldn't even put problem coins in a slab at all ! And, there are countless coins that 15 years ago they would have refused to slab them, but today they routinely slab them and give them clean grades. In today's world problems have to be more severe than they ever used to be ! And as for the simplest most basic question there is - is a coin uncirculated or not ? Well even that is ignored most of the time for in today's world a coin with wear, which is the very definition of being circulated, can be graded as high as MS67. Of course that defining line tells you just how much that definition is really worth, for it also means that a coin with wear cannot be graded MS68 - but it can be graded MS67. So much for definitions - and questions of severity !
Thanks for the discussion. From my searching on EBay I was finding quite a few coins titled BU uncirculated, but when pulling up the images I was seeing staple scratches. One of listed by a seller I admire, but personally I would not sell it as BU with a large staple scratch.
I agree with this judgement completely. Except that I've only been collecting for about 4 years and I see increased leniency in just that short of a time frame.
