Took an ax and gave Ms. Liberty 40 whacks.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by calcol, Aug 12, 2021.

  1. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    OK, it’s not Lizzie Borden. I’m referring to the face of Ms. Liberty on St. Gaudens double eagles … specifically the normal relief business strikes issued 1907-1933. When looking at a potential purchase (and I don’t have many:(), I can’t help but examine her face closely. In most cases, it looks like the poor lady was the victim of a vicious beating.

    On other types of coins with St. Gaudins’ design … ultra-high relief, high relief, proofs, modern re-creations, Ms. Liberty’s face is nicer.

    Ms. Liberty’s face doesn’t count for much in grading … it’s only a small percentage of the surface area of the devices. So, her face even on a high-grade coin can look like hamburger. A couple of examples are below. The first, believe it or not, is a 1907 Arabic date MS68 from the Simpson collection. The second is a 1907 Arabic date MS66+. And similar, awful faces are common for every date and mint.

    What about the fabled legal-to-own 1933 double eagle? It’s MS65 and the third pic. So, are there some OK faces? Yes, they do occur. The fourth photo shows one; it’s a 1911 graded MS66+.

    So, what’s the cause of Ms. Liberty’s mutilation? Post striking damage plays a role, more with lower versus higher grade coins. Poor striking and poor die creation and management are possible culprits. It’s possible that working hubs had some of Ms. Liberty’s features polished off or that insufficient pressure was used when creating working dies from hubs. Die mishandling or filling may play a role in some cases.

    I reject 95+% of St. Gaudins double eagles because of Ms. Liberty’s face. Maybe the grading services should have a suffix on the grade for examples with decent faces. How about NF for nice face? A MS63NF coin would get my full attention … even though I probably wouldn’t be able to afford it.

    Cal
    1_double_eagle_1907_arabic_PCGS_40276068_ms68_simpson.jpg 2_double_eagle_1907_arabic_PCGS_39135310_ms66plus.jpg 3_double_eagle_1933_PCGS_42095232_ms65.jpg 4_double_eagle_1911_PCGS_81303317_ms66plus.jpg
     
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  3. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    How about FO for 'face off'?

    DSC_6256.JPG
     
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  4. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    Looks like Ms. Liberty need a face lift Beverly Hills style .:hilarious:
     
  5. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    Well dang.... Now I have to go home and study Ms. Liberty's face on my double eagles under some serious magnification.
     
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  6. Mac McDonald

    Mac McDonald Well-Known Member

    Gosh, how much beauty detail for improvement could be expected on such a small coin-metal face, gold or otherwise...? I mean, not much I don't think. Seems to be more with her nose...a 'high point' (no pun intended) for sure and given to smacks, rubs and other nose jobs here/there, even if MS, it is what it is.
     
  7. 1stSgt22

    1stSgt22 I'm just me! Supporter

    She has a deviated septum now!!!! ;) Look it up!!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  8. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    Looks like PMD, having taken hits, but in the same small space? Strange to say the least.
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Nahhhh - it's common in ax fights, protuberances get hit the most often :)
     
    Magnus87 likes this.
  10. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

    You mean like this?
    image.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    You got the idea - severe contact marks, drops the grade 1 point :D
     
  12. dlts

    dlts Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing that she took a few in the face for our freedom!
     
    calcol likes this.
  13. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    I guess my ladies got lucky. First is MS63 and second one is MS64. Other than a somewhat flat nose, my girls seem to have escaped the axe.

    AF89BAEE-F790-467C-8009-2841A2D82616.jpeg 21EC1F35-8C88-49B8-8258-049BB558511A.jpeg
     
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