This coin is barely recognizable as a VLPP...that's why I love it! from a definition of abstract art-- "Abstraction indicates a departure from reality in depiction..." I don't have weight or size yet, but it also looks like it is an overstrike, though I can't make out an undertype, so maybe just an unusually large flan. what it is copying If you have any wildly abstract coins, please post them with the coin that they were copying.
Wow that certainly takes artistic license to a new level That would be quite the Victory to add to my collection. "You see...if you just squint your eyes and then tilt your head 30 degrees to the left while shining the light from behind you at an angle of approximately 45 degrees...you may just see two Victories supporting shield inscribed VOT PR over altar."
At a quick glance, the reverse looks like a Byzantine Follis. Interesting coin. Looks like a miniture Sasanian Alter reverse too.
Ha! Great coin and "great minds" I was waiting to get this Bad boy in the mail and title the thread something like "FIFAFIIILIIIFIUS, the grumpiest SOB to ever rule the empire!" But what are the chances that you'd have just gotten his brother the perpetually bored VAVUUUNIVIUS! Constantine I the Great AD 306-337. Contemporary barbaric imitation Follis Æ 20 mm, 2,96 g very fine
Interesting coin. As @Mat says, it really does look like a Byzantine M on the reverse if you don't look closely, or one of these: Mu'awiya I Drachm, 668-669 Sakastan. Silver, 33.5mm, 3.77g (Album 5). Although actually this is an Umayyad rip off of a Sassanian drachm, copying: Khosrow II Drachm, 623 Ahmatana. Silver, 33mm, 4.10g (Göbl type II/2). By the time the design got to Gujarat, it looked like this: Gadhaiya Paisa Drachm, 1022-1135 Silver, 17mm, 4.40g. Stylized Indo-Sassanian bust wearing sun and moon crown. Stylized fire altar with crescent moon (Mitcher 427). I have a few barbarous issues of Constantinian coins, but they're a bit too good to be considered abstract. By contrast, my earlier Roman contemporary counterfeits are terrible in every way. Here is one of the better ones, although I don't have the official equivalent: Tetricus I Barbarous Radiate, 280-300 Imitating Cologne, after AD 274. Bronze, 13mm, 0.86g. (IMP TET)RICVS (P F AVG). SAL(VS AVGG), Salus standing (cf RIC V2 127). Ex. Whitchurch Hoard, Somerset. Tetricus I Antoninianus, 273-4 Mint II (Trier or Cologne). Bronze, 19mm, 3.13g. IMP TETRICVS P F AVG. HILARITAS AVGG, Hilaritas standing left, holding long branch and cornucopiae (RIC V2 80). Ex Pamphill Hoard. I also have a few Pre-Roman 'Thurrock' potins, which I've shown a few times before, but became very abstract. The design slowly developed from coins from the Greek colony of Massalia (Marseille). This is the type of coin the Cantii (from Kent) copied: Bronze hemiobol, 15mm, late 3rd to mid-2nd century BC, Massalia. Head of Apollo left. Bull butting right, MA above (for Massalia). Found in Kent. Over time, this morphed into a very abstract design that would be indecipherable without the intervening coins: Potin, 85-50BC, Kent. Head of Apollo left. Bull butting right (S.63).
Here's a real Sasanian reverse on a coin of Constantine, from my collection, albeit an overstrike. I assume the undertype is the fire altar rather than vice versa, but not 100% sure. Constantine Antioch anepigraphic overstruck on AE unit of Shapur II (18x17 mm). Here's a nice example of the Constantine type (RIC 57) I just acquired: And here's the closest I've been able to find as a match for the undertype, from the Robert Shaaf collection. This is a larger coin though, measuring 30mm and 8.48g, and the symbol (caduceus ?) in front of Shapur's bust is different. I'd love to see an example of the exact undertype - same size and with same symbol.
I wish this photographed better, but it doesn't even look good in hand. From a large group lot: Era of Constantine, 4th Century AD. Barbarous imitation of Roman Æ centenionalis, 3.07 g, 18.0 mm, 11 h. Obv: Nonsensical legend, head wearing crested helmet, right. Rev: Nonsensical legend, imitation of two Victories reverse type of AD 319-320. Refs: cf. RCV 16288 ff.
Nice one! I really wonder what was going on inside the engraver's head for that one of yours. He clearly was trying to depict something on his subject's head, yet he failed so miserably it doesn't look like any recognizable form of headgear. I love VLPPs, here are a few of my barbarous ones. The obverse of the first is super worn and hard to photograph, so I'm omitting it here.
I've been chasing them for years! I have 144 on my page, with a few hundred more to sort through-- http://www.constantinethegreatcoins.com/barb2/ a few of my favorites smiley face on altar-- two overstruck on IOVI coinage of Licinius-- this one has a rough obverse, but it is all about the reverse-- and three that look like they are wearing sombreros on the reverse that look like the same engraver
I love these barbaric VLPPs. One of my favorite coins in my collection is this one: This is also struck on a rather large flan, and is quite thick and heavy. I love it. The victories on the reverse sort of look like the fire altar attendants on those Sasanian drachms.
I just came to the same conclusion while looking at this thread. That thought had never occurred to me before but I think you're spot on.
I sometimes wonder, if the VLPP had been allowed to continue production for another couple hundred years, how abstract would it have ended up? Seeing how the Sasanian coins went from nearly photo-realistic to absolutely incomprehensible, I really wonder if the Romans/Celts/Britons would have devolved the designs that much.
When talking about these unofficial issues, specifically Siscian VLPP's, there is not much point in talking about specific groups of people, especially more Western people. These Siscian VLPP are typically found in the East and you can generally assume that they are struck near their find sites, as they usually would not travel far. As far as who struck them, Romans or perhaps Germanic people, we do not know. For example, 52 unofficial coins were found near Carnuntum, which included 37 VLPP imitations. Carnuntum is in Roman territory, but right on the border. So who struck these coins? Two articles about this suggest that this may have been the site of a "mint" (Matthias Pfisterer and Heinz Winter, “Eine Sammlung barbarisierter spätrömischer Münzen aus Carnuntum,” Mitteilungen der Österreichischen Numismatische Gesellschaft volume 41, no.2 (2001) :27-41 and volume 41, no. 3 (2001) : 47- 61.) The Bikić-Do Hoard, found in Serbia, had 10,590 coins mostly from Eastern mints; and included some unofficial coins, mostly Siscian copies, maybe produced locally and accidentally mixed in. map showing route from Carnuntum to Bikić-Do
I love the imitations of these. I have a few imitatives and a few official, but apparently only one imaged right now My favorite of the official ones - very distinct and expressive portrait! And a curious one - the wreath says VOT RP instead of VOT PR - I consider it an engraver's error, but it could be the finest style barb out there
The overstrikes suggest an intriguing possibility. In Britain, post-318 Constantinian bronzes are frequently found overstruck with false 'fallen horseman' dies, usually understood as an attempt to recoup losses from the demonetization that accompanied the reform of 348. Might something similar have been going on in Eastern Europe after the reform of 318? Even if there had been no general demonetization in 318, the coins of Licinius may have presented a problem after his defeat. One might also wonder to what extent demonetized coins fed the melting pot for those VLPP imitations struck on new flans. Interesting stuff.
The IOVI coinage of Licinius had less silver than the VLPP's; which is why you find these overstrikes. I did a metallurgical study of a group of unofficial Siscian VLPP's, suspecting that most would have been made from melted down IOVI's and the results are consistent with that theory. Interestingly, Siscia was an ex- Licinius mint; which Constantine took over after the 1st Civil War. here's a screenshot of data from one coin
I was motivated to photograph some more examples for my page, now up to #150. this is another example overstruck on an IOVI. You can just make out the legs of Jupiter and the eagle on the reverse. #146 21mm 2.6g #147 16mm 2.8g #148 16mm 2.0g #149 17mm 3.5g #150 18mm 2.6g and an old die match animation...I think I should have made it animate a bit slower.
