Accidental Experiment- Disappointing Results

For every surprising success selling on ebay, there's always a disappointment. I've been buying large lots from auction houses and flipping them on eBay for over 3 years now; probably close to 10,000 coins. I've almost never managed to buy an individual coin from an auction and sell it for a profit. Just about the only exception is a provincial of a rare individual, e.g. this provincial of Domitia that I bought from Savoca for ~$25 and sold for $53


One thing I have found is that ebay is a bad place to sell nice Severan denarii or high quality LRBs that aren't Helena or Julian II. Eventually I just learned to keep them and save myself the disappointment.

Still, ebay is nowhere near as bad as the time I tried to sell on Facebook. Did actually make a couple sales at a decent price, but it wasn't worth the hassle of dealing with people who just wanted to attack me for owning ancients and not donating my coins to museums, gave me their expert opinion that all of my coins were fake, tried to rob me, or thought that I would sell them a Greek drachm at silver melt.

 

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When it comes to prices, and whether better values are more available on eBay versus the auction houses, there are nuances and factors, including buyer's fees, currency conversions (where applicable), expertise, guarantee of authenticity and return privileges, and the level of the buyer's own knowledge and "comfort zone" that come into play.

I've been buying coins on eBay since around 2001, and I have purchased coins from dealers and auction houses since 1979. I have found that reputable dealers and auction houses do offer a level of assurance for buyers, albeit with a premium, sometimes on the high side, sometimes not, in terms of buyer's fees. These fees, along with seller's fees, provide the revenues for the auction house's operations and staff. The same is true for dealers. They too need their margins to pay for their operations, however large or small, plus their time cataloging coins and posting lists on MA, Vcoins or their own websites.

I have found that, with patience and research (knowledge base), good buys are available through the auction houses and individual dealers to buyer's based on his or her areas of interest. Having said that, the psychological dynamics of auctions can often breech one's sensibilities in the heat of the moment, often resulting in a much higher hammer price for one's winnings than originally planned. Another way to find coins at good prices is through the "remainders" sales of auction houses and coins at reduced prices on dealer's lists.

Being a much more open, unregulated venue eBay needs to be approached with more caution. The key factors with eBay, as I see it, is the buyer's own knowledge on the areas of interest, and buyer's knowledge of the seller. Many reputable dealers use eBay, but so do many grifters and other sellers who really don't know what they are selling, which can work to the buyer's advantage, if genuine, or to the buyer's detriment if fake. There opportunities to buy nice coins at reasonable prices on eBay if the buyer has these two qualifications. Lacking in one or both would indicate that the buyer should patronize reputable dealers or auction houses before seriously plunging into eBay, especially with unknown sellers, who could be legitimate, or coins posted that could be of a dubious nature.

I have sold on eBay only once, many years ago. I know that the fees pile up quickly when listing, but it seems to me that the determinants of the final price are the type of coin being listed, the buyers that patronize the seller's listing, market conditions, and, again, the bidding in the final minutes of the listing, which can often significantly drive up the price, much as can happen with an auction house's e-bid or live floor auctions.

As for slabbed coins, I buy them, but not for the slab, only for the coin. Given the big run-up in coin prices lately, even for more common types, I have seen not that much of a "slab premium", at least for the coins I am interested in. However, I have seen slabbed coins on venues such as Amazon listed at very high prices. Personally, I do not like slabs and almost all of the slabs that I receive are cracked open.

 

You need to try selling in different places on Facebook. I've had pretty good luck selling there personally, but definitely not on the marketplace where you have to deal with people who know nothing at all about ancients. I'd rather not link the groups openly here but if anyone is interested PM me and I can point you to the groups I've been successful in.

 

I'm not into ancient coins but, the auction market for high quality coins is hot right now. Heritage as well as other major auction houses tend to attract strong buyers. So you will see some high prices. However, most of the people buying from Heritage or Stacks Bowers or any of the big boys tend to understand the coins they are bidding on. I have seen some coins pull in the big numbers but, that's because some coins just don't come on the market often so the prices listed in price guides are worthless. A perfect example is the 1830 large cent with medium letters. There is only one known in uncirculated condition but, if you look at some price guides you may see prices for MS 60 / MS 63 / MS 65 and so on. But if there is only one unc how did they come up with all the prices. They didn't they filled in values with nothing to go by. If that one unc goes up for sale at a known auction house you can take that price list and burn it. The collector that really wants that coin will pay big money for it. And for a coin like that there could be 50 people interested in buying it and they will drive the price up. As far as your results on eBay I'm not surprised at all. It's a small auction format and honestly most big time collectors won't even consider bidding on eBay. However, that's not the case with Heritage or the other big time auction houses. The collectors know there is little chance of buying a counterfeit coin or a problem coin that the problem wasn't disclosed. It's a confidence factor. One thing less the buy has to worry about. As far as price well that's up to what the bidder is willing to pay. So if your bidding in those auctions you need to know when to put your money back in your pocket and stop bidding. I learned that lesson the hard way.

 

What I don't like about Heritage is that I end up paying 30-35% more than the hammer, as they charge state tax on top of their usual 20% and their shipping is the most expensive of all US based auctions. Plus extra fee for credit card or PayPal payments.
But in general I don't think 'retail' means much in ancient coins, particularly in not the most popular areas like provincials. Just for example, a very rare Rabbathmoba coin was listed on VCoins by two different sellers. Very similar condition (excellent for this type), I would have really hard time picking one. The asking price of the two coins was different by the factor of 4! And the only time this type was sold on an auction it brought somewhere in between these two listings. None of them was sold, literally for years - I had them in my watch list. What retail you have in mind if you would selling one? The lower, the higher, CNG result? If you discount a US coin 20% it will be sold immediately. If you discount ancient 40% in many cases nobody will notice.

 

I have to say, there are a lot of things that I don't like about Heritage.

The use of Buyer Fee is infuriating. Instead of charging a 20% Buyer Fee, why not just auction the item and take 1/6th of the sale price? The ratio is the same, the only real difference being that we don't have to do math every time we bid on something. However, that's not the only difference is it? Having to do math makes us inadvertently spend more than we intend, which makes Buyer Fees an underhanded approach in my book!

And ya, the shipping is ridiculous, especially since it sometimes takes them a week and a half to even put the package in the mail. I don't even bother with auctions unless there are a large number of coins that interest me. If I do not win any of the initial coins and ascertain that I might only end up getting a few, then I stop all together. At least if you win a lot of coins, the shipping cost per coin becomes somewhat reasonable.

But, Heritage is the only site that reliably sells the slabbed coins that I'm after, so I guess they kinda have me by the tail

Luckily I live in a state (Georgia) that doesn't tax collectable coins. At least there's one upside to living here! haha.

 

Your right but, you need to consider the all the fees when you place your bids. I will figure out the most I'm willing to pay then take off all the fees from that number and that becomes my max bid. However, sometimes I'll go one bid increment higher if I really want the coin. If you don't figure in the fees with the price you will likely win but you will also be paying more than you wanted to.

 

You learned something about auctions, and it didn't cost you that much. On the US coin side it's called "tuition". We all pay it one way or another.

Heritage auctions are not "overpriced" and eBay auctions are not "underpriced". Unless you believe in some conspiracy theory about how the sales are conducted the price is exactly what the higher of two bidders agreed to pay. The coin is by definition worth that much at that place and time.

That last bit holds the key. Heritage has a reputation built in part on million-dollar coins, they have over one million bidders (according to them), and they usually list the coins for a month or more. So they have a stellar, high-end reputation and lots of bidders looking for a long time.

By contrast, eBay has no real numismatic reputation, there is so much "stuff" clogging the listings many bidders won't even find your coin unless they are specifically searching for it, and the auction is only live for 7 days.

That is why, on average, the same coin will sell for less in an eBay auction than in a Heritage auction. That is also why eBay auctions for good (i.e., "Heritage quality") coins are almost obsolete, and 90% of the listings now are fixed price.

Note that I'm not knocking eBay. Unless you have individual $1,000 coins or approx. $50,000 total value Heritage is probably not an option for you, so eBay is a reasonable choice out of necessity. Also, on eBay the transaction fee is only 10% whereas at Heritage it is 20%+. And if you want your money now, with eBay you get paid in 7 days; at Heritage you'll be waiting 2 or 3 months at least.

You will do better on eBay if you list the coins at a reasonable fixed price and you have the patience to wait for a buyer.

 

This is along the lines of a rationalization that I've been kicking around in my head with respect to this situation, and you worded it really well. My initial assumption was that one or the other set of sale prices represented the "correct" values, therefore, one of the sets of values were "incorrect". However, that type of model leaves out the possibility that there is no such thing as correct, just different.

You and others in this thread have made the point about "Fixed Price" as a solution on Ebay, and I tend to agree. I hope to avoid being in a position where I have to sell culls again, but if it happens, then I may try that approach. I've been accused of being "principled to a fault" on matters that other people don't find all that important, but this is an example where I have that type of problem.

Fixed prices on Ebay aggravate me more than they should. I'm looking at all this stuff priced way over market value thinking, "This is an auction site! Let the public determine the value of your item and things will be as they should!". Well, because it aggravates me, I have a hard time doing it myself. But, that's my problem, I certainly don't want to come across as judgmental. Hell, I don't really even have ground to complain about my coins selling so cheaply when I had that option available, right?

 

I concur with most of what has been mentioned.

eBay is a buyer's market - but as a buyer, you need to know what you're doing (ie how to spot a fake) and have a lot of perseverance as you sift through pages of pure garbage and fakes, until you find a gem. I participate in eBay auctions with last second "sniper" bids, and often land a great coin for a price well below retail. There's lots of people doing this, which should tell you why selling coins on eBay isn't profitable.

(Btw Collectors unfamiliar with a particular coin series should avoid eBay. I love Russian roubles, but i can't tell a novodel from the real thing, so I only buy these from full service dealers. I'm much more confident with my knowledge of Roman imperial coins).

As for selling coins - i still use eBay to sell coins that I'm upgrading, happy to get a little money back for them. Unless you're a well known dealer, eBay isn't likely to be profitable for you. However, it's just not worth it to consign these coins to Roma or CNG, who charge high photography fees per coin, plus fees to both seller and buyer. You'll probably make more money using eBay.

Also, I would not use eBay to sell valuable coins. I'm particularly paranoid about selling to overseas customers, with the risk of the coin being seized by customs, due to the ever-changing cultural property laws. In this scenario, I'll likely lose the coin and the money - as eBay will likely refund the buyer.

 

I hate buyer's fees - they have no utility to the customer and are very old fashioned.
When i bid on a coin, i need to think of the additional buyer's fee PLUS the postage (which is always an unreasonable price) PLUS the currency conversion (which is never anywhere close to the actual conversion rate) PLUS the customs duty (this one isn't the auction house's fault).

Auction houses that don't have these annoying fees are likely to attract customers away from auction houses that do. It's behavioural economics - customers want things to be as easy as possible. I only deal with a handful of "easy to use" auction houses, because i cbf'ed going to the sites that make everything incredibly complicated!

 

I would argue that for common coins there is a correct "market" price. Sure, for rarities it all depends on how many people want a coin and how much they're willing to pay for it, but the standard coins that come up time and time again at auction do IMHO have a standard price. To determine it, all one needs is some research.

For example, take a standard Antoninus Pius denarius in VF condition and compare the prices it receives at Heritage, EBay, and other auctions. Those prices will differ, though the coin remains mostly the same.

 

I've spent many many hours doing exactly this. I've catalogued every sale price that I've been able to find on every denomination, condition, and time-plottable tendencies for each of the coin subjects that I want. I'm a bit OCD about this kind of thing, and do not feel comfortable considering a purchase until convinced that I've done everything possible to educate myself on value. This is actually something that I really enjoy about collecting in general. Sometimes I wonder if it is the collections that I actually enjoy, or if building the databases and analysis workbooks is the real pursuit!

I only purchase slabbed coins, therefore, Heritage sales constitute almost the entirety of the dataset. This is why I was initially surprised by the price differential based on venue of sale, because as you said, "The coin remains the same". This lead me to believe that I was doing something wrong or mis-interpreting something.

What I've gathered from all the input, the consensus seems to be, "If you buy it from there you pay one price, and if you buy it from there then you pay another price." Can't say that it makes total sense to me, but as they say, it is what it is.

 

The thing is you are paying a huge premium by sticking to slabs for most common coins.

Today, I purchased my very first slabbed coin. I didn't care that it was slabbed, but the coin is extremely rare so it was either buy the slabbed coin or wait a year or more for another one. The auction house was not Heritage. During my research, I found the last such coin was sold by the same auction house about a year ago. It was unslabbed and in a bit worse condition than mine, but I got mine at 30% less.

Of course, that's a single data point, but it illustrates on a micro level that normally for coins priced over $100, the slab doesn't make a difference in the price. For collectors like myself, they're an annoyance. I now have to unslab the coin, and the only reason I bid on it was I had no other choice.

However, if you only want slabbed coins, then you're stuck with auction houses like Heritage, which - given that the slab doesn't matter - does receive higher bids than normal.

Currently, there's a relatively rare coin that has seemed to come up on Heritage frequently. I'm aware what it goes for on other auctions like Roma and Nomos, but I haven't seen it for awhile, so I've bid on the Heritage copies. The Heritage ones have been much lower quality specimens than the others I've seen, so my bids have been adjusted. So far, every single one has gone for more than I would have paid at Roma and elsewhere. The realized prices just make no sense IMHO.

 

I know, and I'm fine with that, that's not what the thread is about. My inquiries had more to do with why the same slabbed coin would sell so differently on the two platforms, not with what accounts for the difference between slabbed and raw coins.

 

Because outside of Heritage, there's not much of a premium for being slabbed.

 

Ah, that is a perspective that I hadn't considered, and would make sense of some things.

 

I've been dealing with Heritage since the 90's. Over the years the buyers fees have gone up. I think it was 10% in the mid 90's and it has been going up over the years. What people seem to forget is the cost of doing business. Operating cost for Heritage, Stacks Bowers or Goldberg or are high. I know Heritage will wave the sellers fee in some cases as well as not charge a sellers fee on coins over a certain price for long time customers that have bought the coins from them. The buyers fee is what is keeping the doors open. They don't sell coins for free someone has to pay them to keep the doors open. So when a coin is sold the original owner may only get 70 percent of the sell price including the buyers fee. So if a coin is sold for $100.00 including the buyers fee the seller will get about $70.00.