What causes this?

I thought I felt a draft .

 

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Hi, @Insider

Yes, I get your drift. I just disagree with you. Plus, I know you really don't care for error coins and have said so on multiple occasions, so I'm not at all shocked by your response.

But I don't just feel these are Mint errors because "I say so." I can back up why I feel they are, which includes the process(es) of what happens that causes them to occur before they get ejected from the chamber. One's "feelings" or "opinions" are irrelevant, and so is one's position, title, or experience at a grading company when it comes to thinking he/she deserves more clout on a matter. I go by what evidence one presents, not someone's flapping gums or keystrokes.

~JC

 

JCro57, posted:

"Yes, I get your drift. I just disagree with you. Plus, I know you really don't care for error coins and have said so on multiple occasions, so I'm not at all shocked by your response.

But I don't just feel these are Mint errors because "I say so." I can back up why I feel they are, which includes the process(es) of what happens that causes them to occur before they get ejected from the chamber. One's "feelings" or "opinions" are irrelevant, and so is one's position, title, or experience at a grading company when it comes to thinking he/she deserves more clout on a matter. I go by what evidence one presents, not someone's flapping gums or keystrokes."

Please quote what you think I said about NOT CARING FOR ERROR COINS! I collect them and use them to teach the minting process.

Disagreeing is fine; HOWEVER, I posted that you are correct in the big picture. While coins with defective over-all plating due to strike issues are not the ideal - thus worthless, common "errors" - making someone think the majority of them are something special and worth more than face value is IMHO... confusing?

Furthermore, anyone suggesting that I have "clout" and my opinion is more important than others in this thread might need some encouragement.

Keep up the good work.

PS I'll start saving these "errors" and sell you a roll of them with assorted dates for face value - fifty cents. Just send me $25 for shipping, handling, and my time.

 

Do frost breaks occur on the die or the planchette ?

Jim

 

What a great question. Something I now realise I have wondered about but have not asked

 

The Die

 

Thanks Fred

Jim

 

Fred Weinberg, posted: "The Die,"

Fred, I disagree in part because IMO, the answer is both the die and debris (strike thru) on the planchet. Things that happen to the die such as over polishing, contact with feed fingers, and die wear cause them; but the ones I see most often
(v. common on SE) result from debris between the die and planchet.

So there is no confusion for beginners, friction wear breaks a coin's frost too but that's not what we are writing about.

 

Yes, you're right in pointing out that the debris ON the Die can
cause most 'struck thru's', but Expat asked if 'frost breaks' occur
on the die or the planchet.

As I understand it (and I might be wrong), Frosting on proof dies
eventually goes away from striking so many planchets. The planchet
doesn't cause the frost to dissipate, but the striking pressure does.

 

Fred Weinberg, posted: "Yes, you're right in pointing out that the debris ON the Die can
cause most 'struck thru's', but Expat asked if 'frost breaks' occur
on the die or the planchet.

As I understand it (and I might be wrong), Frosting on proof dies
eventually goes away from striking so many planchets. The planchet
doesn't cause the frost to dissipate, but the striking pressure does."

We agree on everything. The back-and-forth is because "frost break" can refer to several things including breaks in a Cameo surface. Your example of Proofs is very common on vintage coins such as Franklins.

One thing I just thought of...
Can anyone think of a "frost break" on a coin (aside from wear or damage) that did not involve the die? I cannot.

 

@Insider

I am trying to actually get what you think here because it appears you are debating yourself. First you say you "draw the line" at calling some error types like "weak strikes" Mint errors, then you say in the big picture you "agree with me" that they are errors (or was it just split plating you were referring to?) In any event, which is it, Pal?

I notice you included "weak strikes" among the many error types where you "draw the line" and feel these aren't real errors. Just curious here. Why? A weak strike is from either weak striking pressure despite proper die clearance, proper striking pressure but the die clearance was too great, or I suppose weak striking pressure and excessive die clearance combined. These are not at all common and can be worth huge money, and they're not in the same category as minor die chips, cracks, or split-plating errors. (Sullivan sold a JFK bicentennial for $450 and a Mercury dime for $1,200.) So other than you apparently "don't like" them, provide a good case as why they shouldn't be errors?

Also, never did I ever say or write in this thread nor anywhere else that split-plating doubling on cents is valuable or desirable. (I am an avid error collector, and I hate split-plate doubling on my zinc cent errors, though sometimes it can look neat and create ghost profiles.) I have never lead a single person to believe that these are anything special. In fact, I cover that point specifically in the book I wrote about Mint errors. So why are you belaboring on a point I never made and don't agree with? However, that doesn't mean it isn't a Mint error. Personally, I don't see the big deal with rotated dies - even those with perfect medallic alignment - but I don't just discount those as not real errors by drawing some imaginary line.

On a different note, many collectors in this hobby have very modest budgets - especially kids starting out in this hobby. Many can't afford $50 to spend on a coin, and they shouldn't be told a cool die crack, a minor misaligned die, or a freaky die chip they found in circulation is nothing but garbage, or that because it is so common it isn't really a Mint error. (Can you think of a better way to disillusion and turn off a new collector?) I always make a point to tell that person it's neat to find these, but understand because they are so easy to find they don't hold much (if any) collector value.

(I am certain you said more than once that you really don't care for error coins or something like that. If I am wrong, I apologize for that.)

Lastly, allow me to give you some advice: If you want to be condescending to me in your responses (which you seem to do tirelessly and with much pride within this forum), make sure you work a little harder and hit it out of the ballpark when directed at me. I'm not your average uninformed dummy, and the pulse of air from your "swing-and-a-miss" attempt was felt from Tampa all the way up here in Buffalo, NY. I appreciate wit, dry humor, and sarcasm any day of the week, but clearly these aren't your motivation in many of your posts. I might add it's not a good look for someone representing a grading company when you are actually supposed to be attracting clients.

~JC

 

I'll read your long and very thoughtfully made post at some point in the future as we both made our opinions very clear although I was just "flapping my gums" with a mint error expert. I consider the discussion OVER and hopefully members will be able to separate our two approaches to the change in our pockets.

As for our grading service (ICG) and how we (I) treat our customers - an area where you are sorely deficient to the point of being... ah, uninformed...

I'll bet at least 12% of our business (very many loyal customers) comes from CRH and non collectors. Another 20% seems to come from folks who have never spent close to $100 on a coin in their life. I'll bet we are the ONLY TPGS that a professional grader (me) calls them to discuss their "treasure," offer guidance, and ask them to send more coins FREE so we can help educate them.

Most EDUCATED collectors soon learn what 99% of other educated collectors call a mint error. Therefore, while Mickey Mouse is a mouse, HE IS NOT A MOUSE.

 

Properly , he is a Mus musculus ! 93 years old this November I believe.

 

@Insider (Skip)

You never disappoint when it comes to being cocky, rude, and with an extra helping of condescending arrogance. Thankfully the real professionals both in the nature of their work and personalities in the "error-sphere" - Fred, Jon S., Ken Potter, Mike Diamond, etc. - are nothing like you and promote the hobby with their genuine kindness and sense of purpose.

And for the record, perhaps you should focus less on being cocky and spend more time learning how to identify a genuine unplated cent. The one below is perhaps the easiest call one could make, yet it got slabbed as genuine. Several more from ICG exist in genuine slabs as well.

At least I have the confidence to accept my analysis is simply an opinion - a way to provide a little more clarity to identify and catalog errors. I don't get mad if someone chooses not to accept my view on things. I also am humble enough to admit when I am proven wrong. True learning is acknowledging and accepting one's mistakes, and to move forward with the benefit of the overall learning experience.

As far as that "Talent on Loan from God," well, you might need a little more humility in your life than talent.

 

Well...what have we learned, here...? "It's an error"..."it's not an error"..."it's an error"..."it's not an error"...etc, etc. Understand debate and disagreement, differing opinions, et al, but maybe it doesn't really matter. If it does matter for some reason, what do the almighty TPGs have to say about it, what it is, etc...? Bet between themselves and even internally, they differ/disagree, also...so back to square one...!

 

For open-minded people who wish to learn, below are a few sample pages from my book on Mint errors - Mint Errors to Die For - regarding unplated cents. (Over 550+ copies sold to date.)

 

...and here are three other Mint errors that I say - directly and unequivocally - do not really carry a premium and aren't exciting for error collectors: Die chips, die cracks, and plating blisters. They are in my book and not propped up as something to be considered "valuable" just as I claimed. (Though extreme examples have been sold for a few bucks or less, which I also allude to, but I am in no way endorsing them.)

Again, just because our friend in Tampa says they aren't Mint errors (and please pardon his grace-deficiency syndrome and flamboyant snobbery), that doesn't just make it so. At least I can prove the process by which these flaws came about during their stages of the minting process, and that's what makes them "Mint errors." I don't dispute they are so common and undesired by error collectors, and I would never want these errors/flaws on high-grade non errors. But our friend in Tampa can't, won't, or just doesn't feel like explaining why he says flaws like weak strikes, split-plating on zinc cents, die cracks/chips, etc. are not Mint errors.

I am willing to listen, and I love to learn new things. So please, provide us all the mechanics and numismatic evidence as to why those should not be referred to as Mint errors. But saying "because I said so" attached to knee-jerk insults is not a good teaching strategy. As a 20-year veteran high school history teacher working in a consistently high-performing rural school district, I know good teaching when I see it, and when making a claim it is important to use evidence.

 

Debate is always healthier than saying "the debate is over."

 

Joe, while I appreciate you clarifying your thoughts and opinions, the only reason I can think of is to set the record straight, but I wouldn't waste my time on it.
BTW, I sure hope you got the author's permission to post those pages. LOL

 

Mac McDonald, posted: "Well...what have we learned, here...? "It's an error"..."it's not an error"..."it's an error"..."it's not an error"...etc, etc. Understand debate and disagreement, differing opinions, et al, but maybe it doesn't really matter. If it does matter for some reason, what do the almighty TPGs have to say about it, what it is, etc...? Bet between themselves and even internally, they differ/disagree, also...so back to square one...!

IMO, only someone who cannot read will return to square one. I believe that the two members throwing spit balls in this thread are in 100% agreement! Ideally, the Mint wishes to produce a perfectly made coin in all its attributes. That is extremely hard to do considering the numbers of coins they make. Therefore, IMO, anything out of the norm can be considered a mint error. We have been writing about a coin made with splits in the copper plating. The coin is abnormal and therefore it is an error. I believe these are referred to a "plating ERRORS." The disagreement between us is because making a big thing about about split plating IMO, is off track. Explain what it is and how it happens. Then let folks collect it while the market puts a value on it - currently not much.


JCro57, posted "Insider (Skip),

You never disappoint when it comes to being cocky, rude, and with an extra helping of condescending arrogance. [Thank you, but I don't deserve to be described in the same way Joe Namath was before he won the Super Bowl]. Thankfully the real professionals both in the nature of their work and personalities in the "error-sphere" - Fred, Jon S., Ken Potter, Mike Diamond, etc. - are nothing like you and promote the hobby with their genuine kindness and sense of purpose.

And for the record, perhaps you should focus less on being cocky and spend more time learning how to identify a genuine unplated cent. The one below is perhaps the easiest call one could make, yet it got slabbed as genuine. Several more from ICG exist in genuine slabs as well.

Before making any more ignorant assumptions, you should know that I don't have the final word on minting errors. I have learned NOT to certify any unplated cents unless they have a frosty original as struck surface.

At least I have the confidence to accept my analysis is simply an opinion - a way to provide a little more clarity to identify and catalog errors. I don't get mad if someone chooses not to accept my view on things. I also am humble enough to admit when I am proven wrong. True learning is acknowledging and accepting one's mistakes, and to move forward with the benefit of the overall learning experience.

This paragraph describes me also you've saved me a lot of my time

As far as that "Talent on Loan from God," well, you might need a little more humility in your life than talent.

So, rather than condemning a coin in a slab that you never had the chance to examine in-hand, perhaps you can actually add something to this thread besides a book advertisement D I shall get a copy for the office).

Now, will you please tell all of us EACH STEP you go through to authenticate an unplated/part plated Zinc cent when you actually have one in hand. Then, I'm sure we all would appreciate knowing why the coin you feature as an altered coin in an ICG slab is not genuine.

PS I've tagged you on another thread and hope you will add your comments.