Ethics opinions please

Hello everyone,

I would like everyones opinion on a situation that is really bothering me. Here's the scenario. You have a seller on ebay that until earlier last year, was the founder and owner of one of the oldest currency grading firm. It is my understanding the there were two active graders with this firm, the owner and another individual. This particular firm has been the topic of much discussion regarding their grading practices.

So the the former owner has now (or so the story goes) dedicated himself as a full time collector and dealer. Here's were I struggle. This dealer is a big time ebay seller who sells notes graded by all of the major TPG's. He also lists graded notes from his former company that he most likely graded himself. Currently he has 52 notes listed from his former company, some graded during his ownership and many by the new ownership.

I could go further but I think that is plenty. Is this right and ethical to sell notes that you personally graded, or were graded my your company?

 

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This really questions the integrity of the dealer, and since I personally do not know who you are talking about and have no reason to doubt their integrity at this point, then I see no problem with what they are doing. Although maybe not in a slab, dealers have always sold based upon their estimate of a coins grade. To me this is not different. I think that the buyer is responsible for buying the coin and not the holder.

 

I have to agree with Jallengomez; there is no problem with selling a coin or note that one's self has graded. Rather, the buyer, as always, must beware. If the dealer, while grading at his firm, had a reputation for fairness and accuracy, then the buyer can be confident in his purchase. If not, then the buyer should avoid purchasing the suspect notes.

 

What was/is the consensus on the accuracy of the TPG service? If it was something like David Hall selling PCGS coins on eBay, then there would be no problem at all.
If the the TPG is considered flakey, then caveat emptor.

 

Have you ever gone into a store and bought raw coins/currency? Who do you think graded those raw coins/currency? Is your situation really any different?

 

Sorry guys! I have to agree with Payton on this one! Here,s my logic
This is especially true in higher grades where the differences between
One note and another are very small and many times cannot be detected
By the avg collector, But the price paid could be enormous with just
A grade change, I here many people out there saying buy the note not
The grade!! Not sure that iam on board with that, Thats why i only buy
Slabbed notes from company.s i know i can trust like PCGS and PMG
I always know exactly what i have!

For someone out there grading there own notes and slabbing them saying
There something that there not or you have any doubt would not
Ever even consider going there!! No ethics!! No Honor!!

 

I am having difficulty in comprehending your inference of an "Ethics" violation. Your friendly neighborhood coin shop does it all day long and some even have EBAY accounts which they auction their inventories. But you would not be able to identify most by business name as most create personal accounts, the same way you do.

The same old rule applies with paper money. Don't buy the slab, buy the note. If you feel there is a questionable assigned grade, you have the right to question the seller. What else should the seller afford you except an honest answer as to how they feel the note warrants the grade listed ? Sounds like your making your collecting venues far more difficult than they really need to be. Bottom line is , your the ultimate judge and no one is forcing your hand to buy anything .

Selling Counterfeit coins or paper notes is illegal and should be reported. I didn't hear that claim in your ethics concern.

 

I disagree. If you don't educate yourself regarding TPGs before spending hundreds or thousands more for a digit or two in a high-grade coin, then you as a buyer are being highly irresponsible with your money. To call the seller unethical simply because he's putting his coins and opinion about them in slabs instead of cardboard holders is a ridiculous slander.

 

Ethics

I concur, wholeheartedly.

Tom.

 

As a dealer in MPC for nearly 20 Years, I think i can tell the difference but the
Average collector, Not so much, Iam not going to debate this iam simply giving
You my opinion!!

 

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This particular TPG has a history of providing favorable grades to certain dealers for a percentage of the profit. Also, cleaning, note doctoring and the all the rest. Also, I've heard that employees of the two major TPG's are forbidden to sell or deal in notes graded by their company.

 

If they have a history of it, then the public can determine that they do it. As with many things, an uneducated buyer is a disaster waiting to happen.

I have said it for years and I think it applies to all TPGs (coins or notes including PCGS and NGC). I don't care what they say their opinion of grade is. Mine is much more important to me and I will stick to what I think in my gut.

If you know your stuff, you can grade it for yourself. If you don't, then hang on for the ride, because you're going to get screwed really badly and it's just a matter of time.

If you don't know your stuff, you shouldn't be buying it. Take the time, and spend a few hours reading. The financial rewards will far outweigh the time spent.

 

No violation especially if you know this up front

No violation especially if you know this up front and take ordinary precautions.
If you do not know it you should not be buying very high priced paper (from anyone to begin with) or until you gain more knowledge at the very least. Anyway what goes around comes around and there may be items to be had at bargins because of this knowledge, think, think, think!!!
Your mind, experience, and forsite are your allies here as always.

I have felt for a long time, (and it took me a long time) to see none of this stuff 99% is rare and it will come around again. You can PASS and it will pay you to learn that one very well - the item will come around again - where is the fire???

 

I respect everyones opinion! The experienced collector should/can grade notes on their own as well as be savy enough to know who the scammer TPG's are. I totally agree with that. I'm just concerned about the newbie/novice's out there that will fall prey to the grader that will intentionally overgrade their own stuff for added profit. Often times, huge profit.
Cya

 

Noble thought, Payton. Problem is you can't protect people from themselves.

Every day novices are sold overgraded and often times even whizzed or otherwise damaged coins and it is only after their initial purchase that they start to acquire knowledge about coins. Soon afterwards they realize that they got ripped off and at this point one of two things happens. Either they leave the hobby disgusted that they made a poor purchase, or they stay and continue to learn. If they choose to learn more, chances are they won't get fleeced again.

Just MHO

 

The Bottom line here, Know what your buying!!

 

If you're still working for the company, definitely not. It's an obvious conflict of interest then.

If you're not still working for the company, I wouldn't see a problem with it, so long as you honestly disclose the fact that you graded them yourself. I think to avoid (or at least mitigate) the potential conflict of interest you should disclose the fact that the notes may very well have been graded by you.

 

The problem is he may still have connections with the company
After all he did grade alot of the notes and iam sure he has his
Own stock of over graded ones, So who really knows

 

i.e. GUILTY until proven Innocent? Man, you must live a rough life.

 

Excuse me, but I still do not understand how one could come to the conclusion that there is any degree of unethical behavior being perpurtrated by this seller.