Is there any way to identify clipped coins?

Gam3rBlake · Jul 7, 2021

hotwheelsearl said: ↑

There does tend to be a bit of extra goober on the side of an extreme off center coin, but lots of Romans were simply not well struck.

Extreme off center:
View attachment 1327935

Nice flan, poor centering.
View attachment 1327936
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Yeah see mine looks like it was minted like your second picture one was.

But then had the red highlighted area clipped.

Like this:

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hotwheelsearl · Jul 7, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Yeah see mine looks like it was minted like your second picture one was.

But then had the red highlighted area clipped.

Like this:

View attachment 1327947
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I chalk up these "clips" to poor quality control. This coin is missing a solid 20% of the flan!

Gam3rBlake · Jul 7, 2021

hotwheelsearl said: ↑

I chalk up these "clips" to poor quality control. This coin is missing a solid 20% of the flan!
View attachment 1327953
Click to expand...

Hmm how is the weight on it?

Is it within margin of error for what it’s meant to be?

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Dang imagine how long it would take to make coins if you’re limiting to making one at a time
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Yeah. But one coin was a days wage. So make 2 and take the afternoon off

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

GDJMSP said: ↑

First off, I freely admit that I know next to nothing about ancients, but I do know a few things about medieval. And from everything I've ever read making the planchets and the striking methods were pretty much identical in both periods.

That said, there's a couple basic things you have to realize. When they made the planchets, (and this is excepting the cast method that some of the ancients used), they would hammer out a sheet of the metal to the desired thickness and then cut the planchets from it by hand. Then they would weigh them to verify they had what they wanted. If the planchet was too heavy they'd simply cut a little more off. My point in explaining this is that all planchets were cut, clipped if you will, because that's how they made them. And that left the edges with a particular look.

But when they struck the planchets the look of the edges changed, and changed quite noticeably. And no they didn't use collars but the edge still changed as a result of the force of the blow and the metal being pushed and stretched. It became pushed out in the center the sharp edges top and bottom smoothed out. The edge was kind of rounded over after the strike.

Once the coin was struck if the edges were cut again by someone clipping them, the look of the clipped area became quite different from that of the original coin, and it could easily be seen because when you're looking at it the cut area is adjoined on both ends by area that had not been cut. So it was easy to see the difference.

Now yeah, maybe with some wear the sharp edge at the top and bottom of the cut area might wear off and smooth up a little but not that much. So if you look close you can still see the differences. And if use a loupe it should be even easier to see where the change occurs.
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I can listen to you all day. I can just about see the coin made. One question. How many times do you think they strike each coin. Don’t think it’s women work. Wow did I just say women work. Skip that women line ok!!

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

RichardT said: ↑

I kind of doubt if this denarius has been clipped.

If you are really interested in this general topic (ancient Roman denarii production, purity etc), I would strongly recommend reading this book:

The Metallurgy of Roman Silver Coinage: From the Reform of Nero to the Reform of Trajan

It answers many of the questions raised in this thread. Like how denarii were prepared and struck, discussed in Part I, 6 - Metallography and the production of denarius blanks (pp 130-147).

The ancients also commonly struck debased silver coins which look like pure silver to the eye. The book explains the process by which the ancients did that (via the deliberate creation of a silver enriched surface). This while the core of the coin has lower silver purity. You can see from the attached table that by the time of Trajan the silver purity was about 80%. Hadrian succeeded Trajan, so the purity should be close. Certainly not higher, at least.

Also, the book also has a section explaining that such debased silver coins that look seemingly fine on the surface can actually have had their non-silver content leached out. The weight of such coins will be much lower than expected, and the weight will vary greatly even between two coins of the same issue. But this doesn't mean the coins were clipped. It's simply that the copper or other base metals are gone while the silver remains.

Your coin IS light for the issue. I suspect it's because:

1. The coin's had it's copper or base metals leached out, or
2. The coin was originally struck at such a low weight, or
3. The coin is clipped.

I doubt if the coin was clipped though, because Hadrian's denarii were not pure silver to begin with. If you were clipping coins, I would think you would want pure silver. Would you want to clip metal which you had to refine again yourself?
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Wish I could read that book. Would be an eye opener

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Well I mean I don’t think any Emperor issued denarii that were pure (or 99%) silver right?

If I recall correctly even when the denarius was at it’s heaviest & most pure under Julius Caesar they were still “only” 95-98% pure and would need further refining to get pure silver.

I think you’re right maybe it’s just the base metals leeching out.
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That’s why I wish I could read the book cuz metal leeching out needs to be explained to me

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

I hate being the dumbest one in the room

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Well I mean it’s known as a historical fact that Caligula spent 1 Billion sesterces in the first year of his reign alone. O_O

That’s 250 million denarii coins.

It’s not like they had electronic banking back then so everything he spent would have had to be in cold hard cash.

I can totally imagine him giving a merchant a handful of gold aureii coins for several amphorae of Falernian wine. The very best wine in Rome. Apparently a single sextarius (~0.5 liters) cost 2 denarii and a single cup cost 4 ases.

As part of the ruins of ancient Pompeii, a price list on the wall of a bar establishment notes

For one "as" you can drink wine
For two you can drink the best
For four you can drink Falernian.

It may not sound like much but it was 2 days wages for the average Roman for a single sextarius of wine. But an Emperor would’ve bought it in large quantities of course.
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Sounds like the prices at a Bruins game

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Oh yeah don’t forget Julius Caesar!

His denarii are the only ones I’ve ever seen that weigh up to 4 grams and over.

View attachment 1327924
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Oh I see now @GDJMSP Nice coin @Gam3rBlake

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

hotwheelsearl said: ↑

I chalk up these "clips" to poor quality control. This coin is missing a solid 20% of the flan!
View attachment 1327953
Click to expand...

Hack job

Cheech9712 · Jul 8, 2021

Thanks members. Don’t know much but learned good info. Thanks again

GDJMSP · Jul 9, 2021

Cheech9712 said: ↑

One question. How many times do you think they strike each coin.
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Most of the time just once. But now and then they'd strike it twice or even 3 times. You can usually tell just by looking at the coin. If it was struck more than more than once it'll show in the devices someplace on the coin, usually in the legends.

Cheech9712 · Jul 9, 2021

GDJMSP said: ↑

Most of the time just once. But now and then they'd strike it twice or even 3 times. You can usually tell just by looking at the coin. If it was struck more than more than once it'll show in the devices someplace on the coin, usually in the legends.
Click to expand...

Another silly question. Are the values different. My guess is the single strikes would be more sort after. Thanks

Gam3rBlake · Jul 9, 2021

Cheech9712 said: ↑

Sounds like the prices at a Bruins game
Click to expand...

Well it certainly paid for a lot of lavish Gladiator games at the Colliseum.

Apparently a really skilled Gladiator could sell for up to 100,000 denarii.

Gam3rBlake · Jul 9, 2021

Cheech9712 said: ↑

Yeah. But one coin was a days wage. So make 2 and take the afternoon off
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Nah they didn’t get to keep them.

It wasn’t their silver & gold in the first place.

My guess is they had a bunch of slaves sitting around at the Temple of Juno Moneta hammer striking coins all day.

Cheech9712 · Jul 9, 2021

Gam3rBlake said: ↑

Well it certainly paid for a lot of lavish Gladiator games at the Colliseum.

Apparently a really skilled Gladiator could sell for up to 100,000 denarii.
Click to expand...

Mike Tyson money. Interesting

Gam3rBlake · Jul 10, 2021

Cheech9712 said: ↑

Mike Tyson money. Interesting
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Yup but only the best of the best.

Keep in mind Mike Tyson never faced the risk of dying if he lost like a gladiator did.

GDJMSP · Jul 10, 2021

Cheech9712 said: ↑

Another silly question. Are the values different. My guess is the single strikes would be more sort after. Thanks
Click to expand...

For the most part no the values are not different, but there can be exceptions. It depends on the collector looking at them because each has different taste, and if there is any literature on the various varieties for specific coins, but most of the time there is not. And it must also be understood that with hammered coins those with multiple strikes are pretty common.

For example, some collectors obviously like varieties so they would be attracted to the coins with multiple strikes. And because of the method of manufacture, hammered coins in other words, the coins with multiple strikes are usually going to be unique. But, few would realize that fact and thus the value is usually little changed. Others would prefer the cleaner look of coins with a single strike.

It's a chocolate and vanilla thing really.

Cheech9712 · Jul 12, 2021

GDJMSP said: ↑

For the most part no the values are not different, but there can be exceptions. It depends on the collector looking at them because each has different taste, and if there is any literature on the various varieties for specific coins, but most of the time there is not. And it must also be understood that with hammered coins those with multiple strikes are pretty common.

For example, some collectors obviously like varieties so they would be attracted to the coins with multiple strikes. And because of the method of manufacture, hammered coins in other words, the coins with multiple strikes are usually going to be unique. But, few would realize that fact and thus the value is usually little changed. Others would prefer the cleaner look of coins with a single strike.

It's a chocolate and vanilla thing really.
Click to expand...

Thanks To each there own right. That’s good to know

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Is there any way to identify clipped coins?

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Is there any way to identify clipped coins?

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