NAC wins

Are all these “serious collectors” incredibly rich people? Just how many of us have enough discretionary funds that allows the luxury of hiring agents to inspect coins on your behalf? Shame on me for not attending auctions in person, but my excuse is I live in Australia and my private jet is at the mechanic.
I do the best I can using the interwebs. I’m reasonably proficient at spotting fakes in my collecting area (portrait series of Roman / Byzantine / British rulers), and assertive enough to return items I’m not happy with. Someone here once said “know the coin or know the dealer” and that’s the best I can do.

 

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I am not a "serious collector" but I do take collecting seriously. I am what can at best be described as a bottom feeder and whilst I enjoy seeing the beautiful coins, most of the discussion above is beyond me and I am happy to leave it to the "serious collectors".

 

That is a very good question, the answer is : in case no pedigree is present and the coin looks attractive and desirable to collect, but you are not so sure, does the expert come at hand. Did try to reveal a coin's history several times and ended up with: we are not allowed to reveal this information. Before I am going to bid by internet on a highly collectible coin based on a bad photo I can't accept that kind of answers and will skip the coin instead.

 

Its 5%

My coins cost 650 francs, 1300 francs, 2100 francs, 2250 francs. Maths. 5% isnt a lot. Somewhat over $300 or so at this sale.

I'm a retired mechanical engineer on a pension.

I fund my collecting thru selling coins I bought 20 years ago at a gain, and by gradually shrinking the size of my collection as I move upmarket. Some available this week as many will know.

One agent represents maybe a dozen collectors. They get a few hundred dollars from a few different collectors and their trip to Zurich is funded.

A hobby which is accessible to a retired mechanical engineer on a pension isn't a rich persons hobby. But you do have play it with very high levels of skill, buying the right coins at the lowest possible price.

I've always, consistently, argued on CT for taking this hobby seriously, doing oodles of research, viewing coins in person, researching quality, strikes, surfaces, die engravers, scarcity obsessively, researching provenances and the history and importance of prior collectors and so on. That's how I can collect the way I do on an engineer's pension.

Do the work!!!!

 

Yes

I do my pedigree research BEFORE the auction. I spend several days researching all aspects of coins offered for sale for a single auction like NAC last week, sometimes as much as a week research for a sale containing couple hundred roman republican coins. The agent is part of that effort.

I'm razor focused on getting value for my money; once I have all the information to hand including extra pedigree research, extra photos from past sales of this coin or taken by me in hand or by an agent, the views of the coin in hand by me or agent, information on scarcity, symbols and many other things, then I'll decide that the coin is "worth 1300 max but you can go one cut-bid higher if needed"

Do the work!! Think am gonna put that as my signature line in every post from now on

 

I like your plan. But just out of curiosity, have you ever bought a coin that turned out to be a fake?

 

Yes. In 2011. Below looks absolutely authentic

But it shares dies with the below two fakes, pressed fakes using as a source an incomplete genuine coin with details filled in. Specifically the palm branch behind the desultors is not a palm branch, but like a feather, and the two pieces below look more obviously pressed. Also there are a number of less obvious stylistic differences from genuine types which am not gonna list in case the forger is reading. But replacing palm with feather is an easy catch


In a collection of 600 theres probably one or two more lurking fakes, but by focusing on coins provenanced before 1980s, when modern pressed fakes started (tho they became common only after 2000) I'm pretty well insulated from modern fakes

In 2019 I showed the comparison fakes to the seller and I got an immediate full refund £1350 from the dealer I bought my piece from in 2011. The piece had no prior provenances. I don't really buy coins with no prior and old provenances anymore..

 

First, congratulations on your wins. Second, like I said before, I find the way you work with your coins educational and inspiring. Thanks for sharing both.

 

Indeed. I've seen one well known high-end dealer on multiple occasions put coins up for auction "from collection of a gentleman", etc, that I had recorded as being sold on eBay a few months earlier. I really don't get the point (although I've seen some of these sell for a $1K markup over eBay price, so who knows if those words may have played a part).

In my own realm (Constantinian bronzes) unfortunately provenance is not available the majority of the time, or a relatively recent auction provenance at best. You may get a hoard provenance, but since hoard reports typically lack photos of most coins, I rather doubt these have much value. It's also quite common for coins to sell in lots where there are no pictures (e.g. the PLVR NATAL FEL plate coin I posted in another thread, ex. Roma, had previously been sold in a Kunker group lot, as have many coins from famous collectors. I have one coin ex. Lord Grantley 5th, but again no original sale photo. Constantine just gets no respect!).

Nowadays buying from overseas auctions you do at least usually get legal export papers.

 

I really dislike the term "serious collector" or "advanced collector" as a proxy term for someone who is buying expensive coins. Hogwash. You can be "serious" or "advanced" buying $5 coins, or collecting coins from circulation for that matter. One could also be a complete nut case and buy $1 million coins if you have the money.

I believe the origin of this nomenclature comes from dealers and auction houses who have some obligation to stroke the egos of their wealthiest clients. I have heard few - or maybe no - well-heeled collectors actually refer to themselves this way.

 

Thank you!

I try to be consistent with recommending how to work with coins, those you own and those you don't own yet. Do the work.

 

Using it as a proxy for someone who "does the work," as @Andrew McCabe does, is certainly much more justifiable. Although it brings back some bad memories of being a young lawyer, when certain other young lawyers I knew insisted that in order to be a "serious lawyer," one had to work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, never take a vacation, and depend entirely on your spouse to raise your children in the unlikely event you've managed to acquire one. (Until the divorce, that is.) Needless to say, I was never a serious lawyer myself by those criteria!

And, of course, not all of us -- even those of us who are retired -- have the time to treat coin collecting as a full-time job, or have a large pre-existing collection they can sell off to fund current purchases. I live on a fixed income myself (Social Security) plus my relatively modest savings (which have to last me the next 20 or 30 years -- I hope!). Unfortunately, I'm already approaching the limits of my coin budget for 2021, so I definitely need to cut down on my purchases for the rest of the year!

My problem with time, apart from the health issues that limit the number of hours a day I can "work" on my collection, is that I have a second hobby -- I prefer to call it an avocation -- that takes up at least as much time, namely Jewish genealogy and family history. I've been engaged in it since childhood, and
I am actually considered "seriously" knowledgeable about some limited geographic areas like Baden and Pomerania in the 17th-19th centuries. Earlier this year, a 350-page hardcover book in German about my mother and her family before, during, and after the Holocaust was published, funded by the state of Baden-Württemberg, for which I provided 90+% of the photos, letters, and other documents, which I either inherited from my mother or found in various archives. I've spent much of the last six years working with a group of people in Germany on the book and its predecessor, a journal-sized booklet published in 2018.

And once upon a time, I think I did qualify as a "serious" collector of British historical medals here in the USA, although only because there are so few Americans interested in the field. (I think I was Paul Bosco's best customer for a few years!) No more, though, as I sold well over half of my collection to Stack's Bowers for financial reasons. I kept all my books, though (including first editions of Mudie, Till, and Welch), because one never knows!

TLDR: I'm afraid I'll never qualify as a serious ancient coin collector, even by the time and work criterion. So be it -- I do what I can in the time I have. I very much admire those who can do more, like a number of our members here.

 

One nuance though, I believe it's more fair to differentiate between serious collector and serious spender. While I think having an agent makes perfect sense when one is a serious spender on coins, being a serious collector - also considering the term being multi-intepretable - is appropiate to describe a large variety of collectors, and is not per se limited to serious spenders. I do think that 'do the work' applies to both.

 

I agree with @Andrew McCabe's assertion of "Do the work."

By most accounts I'm a n00b here. I only started collecting in December and my entire collection comprises 75 coins. I did start of course by thinking "I'm going to collect every Roman empire and every Greek city!" and that has since been honed to a roughly 60 year period in one region of the ancient world. I do read extensively about that era though.

My typical "work" for buying a coin is the following.

• Read every scholarly paper I can find about that coin. Understand why it was minted and by whom. What variants exist? Are there any controversies about it?
• Look it up on Forum's fake list to see what I should avoid.
• Review past auctions and current copies for sale. What is the price range for this coin? For my budget, what can I expect?
• Since I'm on the low-end, provenance is rarely given. However, if the seller does provide one, I do my best to verify it.

Keep in mind that I'm never looking for the "best" copy. The way I collect coins now is by constructing a "story". I'm therefore seeking the best representatives to tell that story. Flaws that would easily put off an investor are fine for me. I'm really looking for the coin's features to be recognizable, though I do have standards that certain features must be clear.

Will I ever qualify as a "serious" collector? I'm not sure. There are 24 coins I'm seeking to build my current story. After that (and the cool down period to let my wife simmer from the expense), I don't know. I may start looking for variants from this period, I may slightly widen the geography/time period, or I may start with other stories. If I do stick with the same period, then I could conceivably become an expert/serious in ten years or so. If I branch out, then probably not.

I do tend to follow things with a passion, and I suspect that's really what Andrew's getting at. One day I decided to start running, and within two years I'd completed 20 marathons. I also like photography, and have my photos in galleries and a book available in stores. I've published a novel and have another on the way. I like languages and speak at least six. And, I still have a day job. Therefore, I'm certainly not going to look at coins as a bunch of valuable shiny things. I treat them seriously, though I may not yet be labeled as "serious."

 

A lot of us are in this boat.

 

Excellent

 

This is an interesting thread, providing a window on another level of auction bidding.

I've never employed the services of an agent/dealer bidder for a live auction, but then I participate in a scant number of these auctions. Virtually all of my auction bidding activity is focused on e-sales or internet auctions.

That is now, but back in the old days, before the Internet made its appearance, for better or for worse, auction bidding was done by non-attendees through bidding forms that needed to be mailed to the auction house before the auction's date, for both live and mail-bid auctions. I did have my local coin dealer, who was attending, say, the Long Beach Auction, in conjunction with the show, to take a look at lots and place bids on lots I was interested in. There was no contract involved and no fee charged for his assistance. I must say that I was not successful in those few instances. I guess back then, there was less formality involved and the intense speed of auctions, as we have these days, driven by nano-seconds of bidding time was not a factor.

Now, in retirement, with a fixed income, my budget dictates my bids, and it acts as a breaker when my impulses, such as they are, urge me to hit that button! hit that button! Just like playing the slots in Reno or Vegas.

I suppose that if I were to employ the services of an agent, he would be along the lines of this:

 

Indeed, I sold some very expensive books on some ancient numismatic areas that I thought I would never collect again after selling one of my earlier collections. Only to find I'm back in it again.

 

That's nice going. I've been collecting for 10 years and my entire collection consists of ~220 coins. I believe in a small collection that tells a story.

 

@kirispupis , very nice entry in this thread.