Quickest upgrade ever! (Well, I just upgraded the nose)

A few weeks ago I bought a tetradrachm of Antiochos VIII Grypos (the hook-nosed). Decent coin, but in the back of my mind I thought it was one that could use an upgrade sometime down the line. As a matter of coincidence, a couple weeks ago in a major European auction you could find around a hundred tetradrachms of the same ruler and his estranged brother. I watched it out of curiosity expecting the high volume to create a fire sale and some of them to go for next to nothing. As expected, the poorer examples didn't hammer for much (but still did decent). But anything well-centred and with good detail fetched the kind of hammer price that has become the norm nowadays. I didn't bid, as I already had one. But while researching the various types I came across a slightly different one from mine, in the stock of a major European house. And it even came with a good provenance. I decided to go for it, and voila:



Why did I buy it when I already had such a recent tetradrachm of Antiochos VIII? Well, for starters this one has a different reverse. In my first coin Zeus is standing holding a star in one hand and a sceptre on the other. Here he decided to take a rest and hold a little Nike instead that is in the middle of giving him a hair-piece. The main reason was the portrait though. Much better struck in this example and most importantly, the die cutter had done justice to the alleged hook-shaped nose of Antiochos. Maybe he found the depiction flattering, who knows? Is it really an upgrade then as it is essentially a different type? Probably not, but it was definitely a quick addition. Both coins ended up on the same month's credit card bill. Ouch! I am planning to keep both of course. My new coin is an example from a different period of his reign, and I think it shows in the portrait. He looks mature and with interesting hair (did they have curlers back then?) For easier comparison, here is again my first Antiochos VIII coin.



Would I have bought it if the demand for similar tets in the auction wasn't that high? Maybe not, or at least I wouldn't have rushed it. But as the prices are still strong, I thought it was good value for money. The whole point of an auction is to save money, and when the good coins sell as much as retail stock, then why bother with the stress of bidding? The real clincher though was the provenance. It goes back to 1990 and the coin came with that seller's ticket. I think coins with strong provenance will become more and more important and desirable in the future. When you have 100+ tetradrachms of the same ruler or his immediate family in a single auction, it can't be helped that assumptions will be made by some... So personally I am very happy to have one that has been around in private collections for so many years.

Now, there is not much of a write up I can do here is there? Most was covered in the recent thread of the previous coin. Also, I cannot really insist on sharing your Antiochos VIII coins as most of you did in that thread too. So to keep the conversation going and make it fun, post your coins with impressive noses. That should allow the Roman collectors to actually contribute too. I have seen some impressive schnauzers on the faces of some Roman emperors!

 

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P.O.M., I agree, an upgrade for sure on the portrait ! Your 1st Grypos is an excellent coin too . Having an example from two different mints for comparison is a good idea.

 

Nerva, A.D. 96-98

Type: Billon Tetradrachm, 25mm, 12.7 grams, mint of Alexandria year 96-97 A.D.

Obverse: Bust of Nerva facing right, KAIS SEB AVT NEPOVAS

Reverse: Agathodaemon serpent coiled with head right, holding caduceus and grain ear within coils, wearing the crowns of Upper and Lower Egypt. In exergue, LA.

Reference: Milne 542, Dattari 638 (rare)

 

I like both of yours, but am especially impressed by your upgrade. I post my Antiochos VIII again only because it shows a very similar hook nose to the one on your new coin, as well as the same type of seated Zeus holding Nike on the reverse.

 

Hello Donna,
What a beautiful example of this mintage! Looks to be Au-Unc to my eye & must have been part of a hoard stashed many moons hence.
J.T.

 

Thanks! This is the original Frank Robinson photo based on which I bought my coin last year. It's actually one of Frank's better photos, I think, but it still blurs when you try to zoom in, and the coin definitely looks better in hand and in my photo.
:



This is my description:

Syria, Seleucid Empire, Antiochos VIII Epiphanes (Grypon) Tetradrachm, 109-96 BCE Antioch Mint. Obv. Diademed head of Antiochos VIII right / Rev. Zeus Nikephoros seated left on high-backed throne, holding Nike on outstretched right hand and scepter in left; to outer left, E/P monogram above A [Antioch]; ΔI monogram below throne; BAΣΙΛΕΩΣ ANTIOXOY EΠIΦANOYΣ; all within laurel wreath. Seleucid Coins [SC] Pt. 2, 2309; Seleucid Coins Online [same] (see http://numismatics.org/sco/id/sc.1.2309); Seaby 7145 (ill.) [Sear, David, Greek Coins & their Values, Vol. II: Asia & Africa (Seaby 1979)]; Hoover HGC 9, 1200 [Hoover, Oliver, Handbook of Syrian Coins, Royal and Civic Issues, Fourth to First Centuries BC, The Handbook of Greek Coinage Series, Volume 9 (2009)]; SNG Israel 2554-55 [Spaer, A. & A. Houghton, Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Israel I, The Arnold Spaer Collection of Seleucid Coins (London, 1998)]. 27 mm., 16.2 g.

@Only a Poor Old Man's example is clearly from different dies, but appears to have the same E/P monogram above A for Antioch as mine does, and its diameter and weight (27 mm., 16.25 g.) are almost identical to mine. Zeus himself appears to have the same hook nose on both coins, but his abs are flatter on mine. On @Only a Poor Old Man's, I'm afraid he has a bit of a pot belly.

 

@DonnaML I really like your example. Compared to mine, both obverses are fine and of a good style, and as you said from different dies. But I have the feeling both dies were from the same hands. Too many style similarities to be just a coincidence. I also think that your reverse is nicer. Better condition and more of the design visible on the flan. But I do think that my Zeus is looking pretty fine, even with the pot belly (probably a BBQ and lots of wine the night before).

Both these coins suffered from delayed shipping. There was some kind of a postage error with the first one and the postal service demanded more shipping fees from the seller, while my new one was stuck at customs as its seller did not give any description of the parcel's contents. They actually contacted me to tell them what was in it. Neither of course compare with the shipping adventure I had with my Side tet which ended up in America. I seem to be having lots of shipping issues lately. I really miss being able to walk into a store and just buy a coin, no postal services involved.

 

P.O.M., After taking a closer look at my Grypos & comparing it to your coin & the one Donna posted, I wonder if there isn't an obverse die match somewhere between these three coins ? If not they appear to be the work of the same engraver & possibly the same hoard . Opinions please ....


Seleukid Empire, Antiochos VIII Epiphanes (Grypos), Antioch on the Orontes Mint, 3rd reign at Antioch, circa 109-96 BC. AR Tetradrachm: 28 mm, 16.24 gm, 1 h. Ex Numismatic Fine Arts XVII, lot 439, 6-27-1986

 

The obverses certainly are similar. Does anyone have the skill and time to juxtapose the three of them together in one post to make them easier to compare?

 

I think it would be a confident bet that we are talking about the same artist. Same dies though? After scrolling up and down numerous times, I think mine is definitely out of the race. Biggest giveaway is that on mine Antiochos' ribbon is almost completely covered by his curles. There are some differences between yours and Donna's (the die border and the nose) but maybe these are due to die progression. If that is the case, then Donna's was struck first. Same hoard? Who knows... Both our coins have at least a 30 year provenance, I don't know how old Donna's is. You simply can't tell, but as we know with tets, they are more likely to be found in groups than be single finds. It is not the kind of coin you are likely to drop on the way to the market.

@DonnaML , did you do a thread presentation of your coin when you got it? If so, I would love to read it.

 

Whether I started a new thread or first posted it in an existing thread, I know I didn't say anything more about it than I did here. Unfortunately, as far as provenance is concerned, Frank Robinson rarely provides any information about the history of the coins in his auctions, and didn't do so for this coin either. I could try to look on acsearch in case he purchased it at an auction (which he often does, I believe), but acsearch has more than 400 examples of Antiochos VIII tetradrachms with Zeus Nikephoros on the reverse, and they all look somewhat similar. So there's no way I'm going to do that!

 

Lovely tetradrachm @Only a Poor Old Man! I think it is more of an addition than an upgrade, both are very nice and of two different coin types from two different mints.

Antiochos VIII ruled relatively long for this time period compared to other kings of the Empire. When Antiochos VIII issued the Zeus Nikephoros type in his third rule at Antioch (your new coin), it became the predominant type until the fall of the empire. Antiochos IX, X, XI, XIII, Demetrios III and Philip I, II all issued the Zeus Nikephoros at the city. It was followed by bronze autonomous issues, which means that perhaps Zeus Nikephoros was more of a city emblem than Seleukid iconography. Which was quite normal on Seleukid coins There was a huge temple of Zeus Nikephoros at Antioch (with a gold statue of him, which has been unfortunately plundered several times by the Seleukid kings).

Two coins of him:

Antiochos VIII Epiphanes (Grypos) (121/0-97/6 B.C.) AR Drachm. 3rd reign at Antioch. Antiochia on the Orontes mint, 109-96 B.C.
Obverse: Diademed head of Antiochos VIII to right.
Reverse: BAΣIΛEΩΣ ANTIOXOY – EΠIΦANOYΣ. Tripod; two monograms to outer left.
Reference: Newell, SMA 411; SC 2310c; HGC 1209.
3.74g
Ex. Collection Shlomo Moussaieff, London, 1948 - 2000.



Antiochos VIII Epiphanes (Grypos) (121/0-97/6 B.C.) Denomination B (Double), Antioch mint, Uncertain date.
Obverse: Laureate head of Apollo right, bow and quiver over shoulder.
Reverse: ΒΑΣΙΛEΩΣ ANTIOXΟΥ EΠIΦANOYΣ (“of King Antiochos the Illustrious”). Eagle standing left, scepter under far wing, IE monogram to left.
Reference: SC 2300.
6.58g; 21mm