Picked up 2 more Emperors’ denarii

Nice coins, congratulations ... I guess all arguements for and against slabbing have been heard numerous times. However, I would like to add one argument against slabbing, which may not be important for beginners with a handful of coins, but it can be absolutely crucial for advanced collectors with expanding collections.
I can see that a dozen, two dozens or maybe even 100 slabbed coins can be stacked up in a private safe, but what do you do if you hit numbers like 1000 or 2000 coins?

I keep my 2000 or so coins in a bank vault, but that would not be possible if they were slabbed. Then again, maybe slabbing and the resulting space constraint keeps you disciplined as collector

 

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Oh wow! 1,000+ coins that’s amazing!

Speaking solely about myself I don’t think my collection will ever be that huge. I usually only buy 1-2 coins every 2-4 months or so. 6 coins a year on average. Even if I collected for 60 years I’d “only” have 360 coins. But If that problem ever came up though you can always take them out of the slabs later.

I also notice my coins never seem to darken or tone weird in a slab.

Now maybe it has happened to people but it’s never happened to me and I like it that way. I’ve seen coins tone super ugly and I would rather keep the bright shiny silver look.

Copper is even worse when it starts darkening and getting that green stuff all over it. Especially with Ancients that have been exposed for millenia already.

 

Did send you included a link by mail , think it's over 100 denarii from anonymous 211 bc till the very latest minted AR denarius and AR anonianus, silicqua and golden Solidus (AV). You might like it

 

Famous last words! Coin collecting is addictive
I never expected my collection to expand to its current size, but of course, everybody is different.

The natural and evenly darkening (of silver coins) is actually desirable and only happens very slowly and when the coins are exposed to the environment. Catalogs note this as "Old cabinet toning" or "fine toning". You may find that such coins often command a premium.

 

It is addictive but unfortunately my budget is limited.

As for the toning. You’re right! My Hadrian has a beautiful rainbow toning around the edges and it probably would get a premium.

But..the risk. Toning is random and I’ve seen a lot more ugly toned coins than beautiful toned ones.

Yesterday I saw a 1942-S Washington Quarter in MS66+ condition but it had this really unattractive dark toning down the face about an inch long.

It sold for much less than a normal 1942-S MS66+ all bright and shiny would have.

 

Very nice examples, @Gam3rBlake! Given the reverse type for Antoninus Pius you chose to acquire, you might be interested in this post I made in @Valentinian's informative thread about vows.

Here are a few of my Trajan and Pius denarii:


Trajan, AD 98-117.
Roman AR denarius, 2.92 gm, 20.1 mm, 7 h.
Rome, AD 114-117.
Obv: IMP CAES NER TRAIANO OPTIMO AVG GER DAC, laureate and draped bust, right.
Rev: P M TR P COS VI P P S P Q R, Mars walking right with spear and trophy.
Refs: RIC 337; BMCRE 536; Cohen 270; RCV --; Woytek 520v; Strack 230; BN 819.


Antoninus Pius, AD 138-161.
Roman AR denarius, 3.15 g, 18.1 mm, 11 h.
Rome, December, AD 160- March, AD 161.
Obv: ANTONINVS AVG PIVS P P TR P XXIIII, laureate head, right.
Rev: PIETATI AVG COS IIII, Faustina II (as Pietas) standing left, holding a child on each arm; at each side of her, a child standing looking towards her and raising hand.
Refs: RIC 313c; BMCRE 1013-14; Cohen 631; Strack 384; RCV 4098.

 

Nice ones! I’ll definitely check out that thread.

Just curious: How come your denarius of Antoninus is 3.15 grams and mine is 3.55 grams?

Was that a debasement transition? Or just wear and tear? 0.4 grams seems like a lot considering the coins are so small. It’s over 10% less silver from the same Emperor.

0.4 grams may not sound like much but x millions of denarii = lots of profit from debasement.

 

Flans were not standardized until well into the modern era and scales were not accurate to fractions of a gram until then, either.

In ancient times, denarii were minted so as to have a certain number of denarii per pound of silver. When they were first introduced in the third century BC, that number was 84 denarii per pound. I don't know what it was in the Antonine period, though.

Some weigh more than average, some weigh less. The standard deviation in weight is actually pretty high. It's not at all unusual for two genuine denarii of the very same issue to differ in weight by half a gram.

 

Moreover, the flans were likely cast before striking. Jere M. Wickens, in his essay, "The Production of Ancient Coins," written for Bearers of Meaning: The Otillia Buerger Collection of Ancient and Byzantine Coins at Lawrence University, notes that flans "were cast en chapelet, that is, using open or closed moulds in which a number of mould hollows were connected by channels." This resulted in a "runner" or sprue between the cast flans, which would be removed before striking. Sometimes, the process of breaking off the sprue removed a chunk from the flan’s edge, leaving what is known as a "flan chip." Evidence of casting sprue removal is seen on this denarius at the 9:00 position on the obverse. This sort of thing contributes to variance in weight.

 

Oh wow that’s crazy.

I wonder if Gresham’s Law came into play and people started using all their lightest denarii for spending and keeping the heaviest ones for themselves.

0.4 grams extra on 9 denarii is a whole extra denarius in silver.

I’m sure even in those days there were gold & silversmiths willing to buy bullion by weight.


In my mind I always imagined large transactions taking place by weight.

So like instead of paying someone 7,000 denarii for something and counting them all out they would figure out 7,000 denarii x ~3 grams of silver = 21,000 grams of silver.

Then weighing out 21 kilograms worth of denarii. Maybe 21x 1kg sacks of denarii.

Then the heavy ones balance out the light ones and the buyer knows he got the proper silver weight.

Now I’m wondering if people in Ancient Rome ever used silver bars or gold bars. I know the Vikings did. It was called “hacksilber”.

But bars do seem the best way to get the correct precious metals weight.

They could definitely weigh wheat just fine. The modius.

 

I don't know much about modern coins, but I guess collectors are looking for mint fresh coins, all shiny and lustrous. These coins have never darkened and hence were never cleaned (ideally).
Yet, 2000 year old coins don't come out of the ground all silvery and shiny. Any shiny ancient silver coin has been cleaned in modern times. Hence, collectors are typically after some aesthetical toning.

 

Gam3rBlake, GREAT! response! I get sick and tired how the "non-Slab" purists attempt to intimidate and talk condescendingly us that collect slabbed ancients with their blabber about their fact that only RAW collectors are the "true" collectors of ancient coins. BTW: Nice denarii's.

 

They do? Slabbing is just one of several forms of storing ancient coins. Like with other forms of storage, it has advantages and disadvantages. It will be suitable for some collectors, but impractical for others. Large, high grade collections are too valuable to be kept at home and slabs can easily take up too much space to fit the collection into a bank vault. So by and large, I think slabs are not well suited for large collections that need to be kept safe in a bank.

 

I know of no one on this forum who "attempt to intimidate or talk condescendingly" about those who prefer slabs. It is your choice. I prefer no slabs for various reasons which is my choice. As @Tejas said, my collection is too large to accommodate slabs, but there are other reasons I prefer non-slabbed coins. One of my biggest objections is the cost associated with slabbing. Generally, it raises the cost of a normally $50 coin to near double. This, in turn, raises the cost of nearly every like coin.

I'm just providing some of my reasoning for not slabbing. I'm not condemning those that prefer it. As long as the coins are preserved, it matters not to me how they might be stored.

 

The following all seem like excellent reason to buy slabbed coins.

My safe is not quite large enough to store my collection but I have been at it a bit longer.

However I simply do not believe this one:

Someone had to pay something like $50 for a slab fee and postage. If a person has a $50 coin and spends another $50 on a slab, they are more likely to ask $200 (AKA three times what the coin alone was worth) than $50. I believe you might get a deal on coins slabbed with faults indicated because the current crop of condition centered collectors do not want coins flagged as faulty but rather than going below the raw value, more of them will break it out and hope the next buyer did not notice. The coin below was graded by NGC VF 5/5 2/5 with note 'lt. graffiti' so the guy I bought it from had broken it out because the label seemed more offensive than the scratches were. I agreed with him but would have taken it out so I could photograph it anyway. To me, the $50 fee is $2 for the plastic and $48 for the opinion of someone whose opinion I respect. Once obtained, I don't need to have the plastic unless I were selling it to someone who collected slabs rather than coins. Since I have no plan on selling, I'm glad it is out.

It is interesting that those who like slabs dislike people telling them that slabs are not good while those who don't like slabs are offended by being told their collections are worthless because they are not slabbed. I do not like slabs because it encourages the trading in ancient coins (this IS the ancient section of Coin Talk) by people who know nothing about the coins other than what is written on the slab and the fact that they can sell it to someone who knows even less telling them that the item is a rare museum treasure worth a very high price. How much more is the Pius ChXF 5/5 4/5 worth than the above VF 5/5 2/5? We can each have our opinion.

Regarding weights: The standard procedure for making ancient coins was to strike a certain number of coins from a given weight of metal. Flans were prepared by pouring metal into molds so the whole pound was used up and all the recesses were filled. As when you make cupcakes from batter, some may have been a bit more full than others. On a very few occasions, the mint noted this on the coins. These coins Constantius Gallus each has on the reverse LXXII indicating that the coin was made as one of 72 from a pound of metal. Do you know how many Roman pounds make a kilogram?
https://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/history_weight/rlibra/rlibra-to-kilogram.html?u=rlibra&v=3
4.2g slightly light?


4.6g slightly heavy?

 

Anyone happen to know why NGC weighed the Antoninus denarius but not the Trajan one?

It’s like they put extra info like that and a description of the obverse & reverse on the Antoninus.

They also gave it a Surface & Strike grade for the Antoninus and not the Trajan.

Did someone pay extra for that?

Or is it a recent thing and the Trajan was slabbed before they did it?

 

Even if someone paid to have it certified that doesn’t mean that I pay extra for it.

For example let’s take that $50 coin you were hypothesizing about. Send it in for $50 for grading, shipping and insurance.

Now you have $100 in the coin. But it’s only worth $50.

I would only pay $50 for that coin. So the cost of grading and all that wouldn’t affect me.

I might pay $5 extra if it’s a coin I really want but that’s it.

As to the price difference between a VF and Ch XF they have auction sold prices for both on HA past auctions. You just find the difference.

I think the biggest thing about slabs is that for people who are totally clueless on identifying counterfeits it gives them some assurance. It may not be a guarantee but it’s still something

You could go on Etsy or EBay right now and buy Ancient coins for super cheap. But are they real? Some people like myself are terrified of spending hundreds of dollars and ending up with a fake.

The slab shows that the coin has at least been checked out by an ancient coins expert and was OK’ed. So that’s something.

Sure it may encourage buying & selling but isn’t that a good thing?

People make money on slabbed US coins by buying & selling so why not ancients?

As long as it’s done with integrity and respect for the customer.

Unlike that HSN nonsense.

 

Very nice looking coins, thank you for sharing!

I've moved from US coins to world crown sized silver and medievals.

I need to learn more about ancients before I jump in, but really like a lot of the designs and history.

Tetradrachm is a favorite so far, but expensive!

 

Funny you say that because I did the same thing.

Most of my coins are US coins but as a history nerd my soul was attracted to the Ancient Roman & Greek coins. I also love the art and thousands of designs.

I just picked up my first Athenian tetradrachm last month. You're right they are expensive but it's totally worth it in my opinion.

One thing I always have to remind myself is that when I buy a coin the money isn't suddenly gone. The coin itself still has it's value. It's not like paying a few thousand dollars to go on vacation and when the vacation is over the money is gone forever.

But just keep saving! I saved up for like 4-5 months to buy my tetradrachm. I'm really grateful I was able to get one in MS condition.

 

Read down to 'standard' and 'economy'. It is also possible your Trajan was a 'bulk'. While there, you can find details on other extra cost options like photos and upgrade holders.
https://www.ngccoin.com/submit/services-fees/ngc-ancients/


I suppose this is a good place to mention that there are other grading companies besides NGC. I have seen enough errors on some of those slabs that I would not consider using them. I only own one coin still in its slab. This photo is pieced together from its parts but I am a terrible slab photographer. I hope you see why I left it in the slab.