Shipping Coins

Now that you mentioned that my Uncirc sets that just arrived a few days ago were left on the front porch.

 

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My postal workers don't even ask anymore,I also besides coin collecting make alot of sinkers for fishing and send them to folks all over,so the postal employees are just happy to have me send a box that isn't maxing out their flatrate box weight of 75 lbs. so when I bring in one with only a few lbs. they are saying,"small order today" and I just say yup!

 

Now that's just plain inappropriate.....

 

UPS and Coins

I shipped some coins this week with UPS. When asked I said "collectibles". They took my $45 or so gladly for the overnight to NGC. Proper insurance for the parcel would have been $30 extra, so I took a chance.

I need to get some Reg-Ins. packaging. I usually do the overnight with USPS, have never had anything stolen like that. But I have had coins stolen when the insurance was minimal. UPS will ofter hem and haw when you try to get coverage for lost or damaged goods. They would not honor their insurance when I had a telescope badly damaged in shipment.

I would think Reg.-Ins. is the way to go when shipping. It turns out to be rather slow sometimes, however.

 

pe.usps.com/Archive/HTML/DMMArchive1209/S010.htm ** see Payable claims # (g)

 

Registered Mail Declarations

Hello all, I just read all the comments regarding shipping cash, coins and collectables, please allow me to give you my comments. As the primary SME for Registered Mail, I was on the Headquarters team that sat down in Washington, DC and wrote and/or updated all the rules and regulations regarding Registered Mail.
To begin with, there are little to no restrictions for sending currency, coins and collectables in the Registered Mail system. However, I would not recommend trying to defraud a government agency by not telling the truth about the actual value of the shipment. One particular business tried it in the past, and when their shipment was delayed, they filed a complaint that let to the Postal Inspection Service investigation of the delay. It was discover that the business was not declaring the proper values of their shipments as described in the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) below and they were given a letter of demand for tens of thousands of dollars of back Registered Mail fees.
As you can see Money must declared as the Full actual Value. Precious Metal, Jewelry, Gems and Other Merchandise are declared at the actual Market Value or Cost. The customer has NO choice to claim a lesser value unless they aren’t concerned about committing fraud. If the Postal employee feels that the customer is not telling the truth, the shipment can be refused. See section 2.3.1 of the DMM below…
Domestic Mail Manual:
2.3 Fees and Liability
2.3.1 Full Value
Regardless of any insurance that may cover the article, the mailer must always declare its full value to the USPS when presenting it for registration and mailing (see chart below). The mailer must tell the USPS clerk (or enter on the firm sheet if a firm mailer) the full value of mail matter presented for registration. Private insurance carried on Registered Mail does not modify the requirements for declaring the full value. The accepting USPS employee may ask the mailer to show that the full value of the matter presented is declared, and may refuse to accept the matter as Registered Mail if a satisfactory declaration of value is not provided. Only articles of no value may be mailed as Registered Mail without insurance.
　

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mail matter

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value to be declared

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Negotiable Instrument (instruments payable to bearer, including stock certificates endorsed in blank)
#Market value (value based on value at time of mailing)

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Nonnegotiable Instrument [registered bonds, warehouse receipts, checks, drafts, deeds, wills, abstracts, and similar documents (certificates of stock considered nonnegotiable so far as declaration of value is concerned unless endorsed in blank)]
#No value or replacement cost if postal insurance coverage desired1

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Money
#Full value

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Jewelry, Gems, Precious Metal
#Market value or cost

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Merchandise
#Market value or cost

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Nonvaluable (matter without intrinsic value such as letters, files, records)
#No value or replacement cost if postal insurance coverage desired 1

A mailer who does not know replacement costs should contact a person or firm familiar with such documents and determine replacement costs before mailing the articles.
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Let me ask you this then - Lets say I mail someone a box of coins - the current book vaule puts the coins at $1000. Now the coins were bought back several years ago at face value ($5.00), and I have extras, so I'm not worried if the package doesn't show up, I'll mail another set. Do I HAVE to insure them for BOOK value, or can I insure them for what I feel it is worth.

That is just a made up case - I guess the only real life case I would have had like that was when I was mailing a laptop to a buyer - I had bought the laptop off Ebay and found out that it was stolen - I found the owner, and he paid me for what I had in it, and I shipped it to him. The laptop was most likely worth $300-$450, but all I had in it was around $175. I insured it for $200 IIRC.

Thanks!

Speedy

 

Contracts and "Fraud"

Ah, the power of contracts, and the freedom that corporations and governments enjoy from prosecution when they engage in fraud!

I shipped two ounces of AE gold from New Hampshire, the "live free or die" state to Ron Paul in Texas to pay him for a speaking engagement. No, they were not "properly" insured and yes they were stolen in transit. Did I have any recourse? None at all, the USPS offered to refund shipping cost. Possibly the postal employee who grabbed this "freebee" was later caught.

When UPS accepted a telescope for shipment, with adequate insurance, what did they do when the person in the South with whom I had a contract told me that he could not honor the contract because it had arrived damaged, and UPS said they could not honor the insurance because I didn't provide enough foam nuggets to protect the shipped item???

Fraud has many definitions in Webster's and in Black's Law Dictionary. One definition is to "arouse desires that cannot be righteously fulfilled". That's the idea, common sense mediates in some situations, we have reasonable expectations, that are butressed by common practice and experience. When a lawful entity fails to fulfill it's side of the bargain, it should be subject to the loss and the legal expense of recovery. In some situations aggravation and emotional turmoil are factored into the legal equation, but not usually with out and out theft.

 

Reply to Value Declaration

To answer your question regarding value declarations, we only need to look at Domestic Mail Manual (DMM) section 2.3.1 and the key words ‘Market Value or Cost”. Just because something was bought several years ago at a reduced cost, doesn’t mean that is what the current value is. Whatever the current Market Value, or Cost is at the time of mailing, that is what must be declared, and the appropriate Registered Mail fees for that value must be paid, regardless if the customer wants insurance or not, the insurance is automatic and everything above $25,000 in value is a handling fee.

If you hired an Armored Car company to move a shipment of $10,000,000 in currency from New York to Anchorage Alaska, they would charge you based on the value, so sending $10,000 in cash to Alaska would be less than sending $10,000,000. Registered Mail is kind of the same, certain values are handled differently than other values, so appropriate handling fees must be paid.

You also mentioned the theft of a Registered Mail piece. With a compliment of over 750,000 Postal employees nationwide at one time, there is bound to be an employee in that group that would try to steal valuables. You may remember the Postal employee in Phoenix Arizona who stole over $3,000,000 worth of Registered Mail articles back in August of 2001. That employee was on his way to Canada when he was caught by the Postal Inspection Service in the Seattle area, he was stopping at Indian Reservation Casinos on his way and got caught, so theft can happen, but it’s extremely unlikely. See the story below if you are interested:

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010818&slug=postal18m

 

Did I see you on an epidsode of Seinfeld interogating Kramer?

 

But that really doesn't answer my question - at least I can't see how it does.
If something "costs" me $5, but has a "market value" at $500, can I insure it for $5? According to what you posted it said:

So if "cost" is lower....and I can fill a replacement for that "cost"....

Back again to the laptop that I shipped - I'm sure market value was more than the $200 I insured it for, but that was the COST of the item both for when I got it from ebay, and when I sold it back to the owner...so $200 was the COST not the MARKET value.

I'm trying to understand what you posted above, but I just can't see the answer?!

Speedy

 

NO, but I wouldn't mind seeing that epidsode...

 

I’m trying to think of the best way to respond… I bought my wife a diamond engagement ring in 1975, if we were to send that ring to someone across the country by Registered Mail today I would be required to declare the current value of that diamond, not what I paid for it in 1975, or what I might be able to work out with someone.

Lets say the diamond was worth $500.00 in 1975 and it is worth $2,000.00 today. It sounds like you are asking me can I declare the diamond ring is only worth $500.00 and only pay what I paid for it in 1975, correct? The answer is NO, it’s all about Current Market Value, not what it was worth 34 years ago.

I’m sure that many customers and businesses falsely declare their shipments every day and save a lot of handling fees because they have their own private insurance, but if a question ever comes up in the future, the consequences may be devastating. Let me give you another example of what actually happened in the past, but I can’t go into too much detail:

A business sent their package by Registered Mail but only declared the deductible amount of what their private insurance company would not pay. This is an Example Only, and not what actually happened - the package could have been a $15,000.00 Rolex watch, and the jewelry companies private insurance company had a $500.00 deductible amount. The Jewelry company declared the shipment was only worth $500.00 to the Postal employee and only had to pay for $500.00 worth of Registry fees instead of $15,000.00.

The package either got lost or was stolen and a claim was put in by the company that mailed it to both the private insurance company and the Postal Service. When the private insurance company found out the a the mailer told the a government agency, the Postal Service in this case, that the value was only worth $500.00 the private insurance company would not pay the $15,000.00 claim and the mailer was out $14,500.00.

So regardless of what it is, a roll of coins, or a used laptop, the current market value is what is required to be claimed to make it legal.

 

Give her the benefit of the doubt.Maybe it's her first day

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It's probably just one of those things. Take a moment perhaps and suggest to her that you are shipping collectible coins and that the dollar amount value is low.
This sounds like a one-time incident.
And actually, USPS is the best all the way so maybe just stick with them.
I do.
l

 

But what does Current market value mean? How does the PO decide what is current market value? If I go to the bank and get a roll of 2009-P Dimes they cost me $5 - since most people can't just do that they are willing to pay MORE than face value for that item - if I mail that item to Joe Blow, and he paid $10 for it, is the value $5 or $10?

Again with the laptop - the current market value for that laptop for that person was $200 - but most likely I could have put it in the newspaper in our town and sold it for $400. An item is worth what you can get someone to pay for it, and I'm trying to understand how the PO decides WHAT the value of such an item is.

I'm not trying to be rude, or mean - I'm really just trying to understand how this works so I don't do the wrong thing. I've mailed thousands of dollars worth of coins in the past and most of the time I look at what I paid for the coins, and what it would cost me to REPLACE the coins. In your first post you said Market value OR cost - I don't know if that means that it can be either...just as long as it is the highest of the two?

Speedy

 

Splitting Hairs

I think we are splitting hairs, and a few dollars one way or another isn’t going to matter to the mailer or the Postal Service. The Postal Service isn’t going to refuse your package unless the retail employee has reason to be suspicious. When a bank employee walks into the Post Office with a full bag a currency and tells the clerk he wants to Register it for a value of only $100,00 the Postal employee has reasonable doubt, and can question the bank employee before refusing the shipment.

Below is an excerpt from the DMM. See what it says in RED regarding filing a claim and the evidence of value. In most cases the Postal Service will pay the claim if it is within reason, but when fraud is involved, claims can be denyed and the mailer may even be required to pay back fees.

FROM DMM;
What You’ll Need

Claims Form
Download and complete the customer portion of PS Form 1000, Domestic or International Claim and take to any Post Office, or request a copy and complete it at the Post Office. Not needed for domestic insurance claims filed online.

Evidence of Insurance:
You must retain Evidence of Insurance for your claim. This includes evidence that Insured Mail, Collect on Delivery (COD), Registered Mail™, or Express Mail® was purchased for the mailed package.

For insurance purchased at a Post Office or through a rural carrier, you will need the original mailing receipt that you were given at the time of mailing. This can be a sales receipt or a postmarked Insured Mail, Registered Mail, or COD receipt.

For insurance purchased online you will need a computer printout from the web-based application where the label was printed and insurance was purchased. The printout must clearly identify all of the following information:

Electronic Label Number Insurance Fee Paid
Total Postage Paid Declared Mailing Date
Origin ZIP Code™ Delivery ZIP Code
Declared Value

For a detailed list of acceptable evidence check the General Filing Instructions in the Domestic Mail Manual.

Evidence of Value:
Submit evidence - such as a sales receipt or invoice - showing the value of the article when it was mailed. For a detailed list of acceptable evidence check the General Filing Instructions in the Domestic Mail Manual.

For Internet transactions conducted through a Web-based payment network, provide a computer printout of the online transaction identifying the purchaser and seller, price paid, date of transaction, description of item purchased, and assurance that the transaction status is completed. The printout must clearly identify the Web-based payment network provider through which the Internet transaction was conducted.
Proof of Damage or Partial Loss of Contents

You must retain the damaged item(s), packaging and all contents until the claim is resolved. If you receive notification from the USPS, you will be required to bring the item(s), packaging and all contents to the Post Office.

 

ok - so that answers the question - it would be cost of item. So if I sold the laptop for $200, even thought it was "worth" $400...$200 would be the correct value.

Speedy

 

If I were the Postal retail clerk at the window, I could live with that expalaination without thinking fraud?

 

Back when I worked the UPS counter we had a policy in place that you never shipped something electronic , such as a computer, unless it was in the original packaging that the manufacturer provided. We used to open and inspect packages to make sure that they were packaged properly. A delicate intruement, such as your telescope, should have been inspected to ensure that it could survive the UPS system. It also should have only been accepted if it was in the original packaging material provided by the manufacturer. They really let you down.....

 

Shipping losses

If you speak with any coin dealer or other person who relies on UPS and USPS or other carrier, you will hear a lot of stories of problems.
The successes are a fairly high percentage, and the shipping companies should be applauded for millions and millions of deliveries done almost perfectly!

If the UPS and the USPS adopted a slightly higher percentage of loss, it would go a long way toward assuaging customer concerns. But the lawyers and actuaries are often dictating the terms of the contract.

Even NGC and PCGS use legal weasel words to give them some latitude if a given set of coins is not processed in the agreed on time.

Most of my losses are due to not running a given situation by a seasoned expert or lawyer. I recently joined Pre-Paid Legal that offers free access to lawyers as part of the deal. Hopefully, this will limit some errors.