Featured 1797 S-139 Large Cent "Suspect" Examples and Initial Research

and it’s actually counterfeit according to your analysis, correct? wow surprised ICG out of all the TPGs got it right, NGC and PCGS both failed. just wow.

 

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Thanks for the wordsmithing. Pareidolia is why I always seek independent confirmation of an attribution of a low grade and often damaged coin. I just didn't know what to call it.

 

ICG's expert authenticator takes/ has the time to review examples literally "under the microscope" where the others apparently do not...

 

@justafarmer, I am writing a comprehensive summary article on this topic and hope you are good with my using some of your CAD work and summary!

 

This all just blows my mind... I know several have said this already but I'm going to say it again... AWESOME WORK! @Jack D. Young for your VERY extensive research and writeups & @justafarmer for your incredibly thorough image 'maps', Keep it up guys!!

 

I'm good with it.

 

Just to raise a particular concern to me. I tend to collect the lower grades like the above. If a fake is produced and artificially aged and worn to this level, is there any way to detect that it is a fake? The sister marks would be worn off. If the planchets are proper and the dimensions and weight are right, are they even detectable?

I mention this because I've noticed a lot of formerly very rare varieties showing up in relatively large numbers in lower grades. Some will be from careful attribution, but could some be newly produced? I currently have accumulated 5 S-95s and 8 S-195s which are supposed to be R5+ rarities. It seems like too large a number for just careful examination.

 

Thanks!

 

I don't know. Maybe this will help. You certainly have a better eye for these things than me. Look to see if your coin exhibits the die characteristics that should be there and doesn't exhibit die characteristics unique to known counterfeits.

 

I know I can't see the counterfeit markers. But is it because they were never there or because they were artificially "aged" beyond detection? I just don't know if I can ever be sure.

 

Coin Week article- thanks to everyone who helped!

https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/live-or-memorex-a-dark-side-struck-counterfeit-1797-large-cent/

 

Cool - I can now add published author to my short list of life accomplishments.

 

Very well put together presentation, nice work you guys! Very informative and easy to follow along with.

 

wow, awesome writeup!!!! congrats - great work and well deserved recognition!

 

We have yet to see hyper-fake large cents below VF. The money just isn’t there

 

But I wonder if that is because it's more difficult to detect rather than not being profitable enough.

When I can accumulate 6 S-95s and 8 S-195s which are both supposed to be R5+ varieties, the numbers just seem suspicious. But since I collect low grade and damaged coins, detection of counterfeits would be almost impossible.

But most are not sold attributed, so they would have to be very shrewd to sell them while anticipating a bidding war from low grade collectors like me.

 

S-51 is supposed to be an R.5 variety, but I have seen enough pop up on eBay to bring it down. The population of some varieties were grossly underestimated

 

I only have one of these, but it's only because I won't bid high enough. I've seen many of these sniped.

But the question remains, is it because they've always been there and unidentified or because new specimens are being produced? I'm just not as confident that it's the former any more.

 

I wonder if this will spawn development of something similar to facial recognition software to detect counterfeits?

I can see similarities in the process, so I don't think it would be a problem with the tech, only the financial resources and input expertise of people like Jack and justafarmer. Expertise in = expertise out verses Garbage in =
garbage out. Devote the resources where it matters.

This also hold promise for better and even expanded attribution services as well as counterfeit detection and post encapsulation inspection to make sure the right coins got in the right holders.

To the TPGs, please look at this as an opportunity to provide the service originally envisioned and not a gotcha or embarrassment. ie critique rather than criticism.

Thanks for permitting me to postulate on a a positive vision for where this could lead. I'm getting tired of always seeing the dark side.

 

Variety populations can only go up. The internet made it very easy for varieties to be identified and bought with a correct attribution, especially in low grades that were generally ignored earlier. Plus the number of people with the interest and skills to attribute large cents has increased. All of that makes it make sense that some previously rare varieties aren’t rare anymore due to an acceleration of new discoveries