I browsed the upcoming Katz auction today. Among their ancient coins were several «collectors copies»: https://www.biddr.com/auctions/katz/browse?a=1674&c=36074 Less than half of the copies are marked. I also wonder if perhaps a few more coins would deserve the description too. How do you guys feel about unmarked copies? Do they belong on a serious auction site? Are dealers that sell these making a positive contribution to the numismatic community?
Maybe they should be described as "dishonest dealers' copies" instead of "collectors' copies." I wish there were a way of finding out who buys these things.
Good suggestion, I agree! I think ebay has as a rule that copies need to be marked. Would it be fair to expect that from other auction sites too?
I think they are just opening the doors for future scams... What if somebody down the road acquires one of these unmarked copies at some point and (not knowing that it is a copy) sells it for the value that an original would be worth and gets charged with fraud later when it is found out to be fake? Not necessarily his fault but he's gonna get the blame... I really dont think unmarked copies are a good idea at all, too much opportunity for scammers
Good points! Would you trust a dealer with this kind of pratice enough to buy uncertified ancient, Chinese or US coins from them?
I don't think I would, I try to mostly buy from well reputed, well established companies, I don't know much about this site and I would'nt exactly call them well established, *only* been around since 2007, And from what you just posted about them selling unmarked copies... Yeesh, it wakes me very wary about buying anything from them thats not certified.
Thanks for the post @svessien! I very much appreciate the heads up. Very frustrating to see more and more of this in auctions. @DonnaML hit the nail on the head. I bet more of those are bought by scammers, with bad intentions, then folks that want a placeholder (I've never understood the mind set of having a fake until you can get a real coin. But they're out there) and people that accidently buying them thinking they're real (I did this once! Couldn't believe how cheap they were going for and jumped on them... only to read the fine print later) combined! I, for one, will be boycotting anymore auction houses and sellers selling these. If they are gonna kill my hobby for a buck then they'll get none of mine! Starting with Katz crap
They will most likely be presented on this site by one unsuspecting buyer, forever tainting the reputation of our fine hobby. It just disgusts me, and all to earn 5 Euro.
I think it must be informative for people making a living out of our hobby to get feedback like this, if you are running a coin shop, an auction house or an auction platform. The customer is always right, and just like you I will vote with my wallet and my feet. I agree that it’s frustratng to see that practices that we used to associate with the lower end on ebay, now show up on sites that one hoped would have another level of professionalism, given that they find themselves entitled to 30-40% of hammer price for their service.
A name to put on my black list. "Collector copy, XF". Disgusting. Some of them could have fooled me and I'm sure I'm not alone. Makes me wonder if I didn't buy some "collector copies" in the past. I am starting to think that my (bad) habit of sometimes buying coins in poor condition is not that bad, even if this is not a guarantee...
My rule of thumb is any firm that would sell these I do not buy from. I appreciate letting us know, but believe they belong in black boxes not auction sites.
From a marketing point of view, it should simply not be worth the dealer's hit to his reputation to sell these types of coins. Mentally, I am much more wary of anyone selling reproduction or fake coins, as it then makes me question all the coins they are selling. For a dealer, it's difficult to retain a high quality brand when you stoop to selling cheap repros... not worth it in my opinion. A reputation takes a long time to be built in this market, and only a short time to be irreparably damaged. Like many of you have also said, there is damage done to the hobby as well through this, with fake unmarked coins entering circulation. Down the road, someone is bound to get ripped off in what is bound to become a game of "hot potato" to make a quick buck by some unscrupulous people. It really diminishes the hobby we all know and love, and should reinforce @DonnaML's earlier comment today to only buy from dealers you trust.
I've written the auction house and explained to them why the coins are offensive to collectors and suggested that they withdraw them. I will report back if I get a response. Perhaps if we all wrote to them if will have a greater impact.
Some dealers we like, such as Frank Robinson, sell replicas. Frank always uses COPY, capitalized and underlined, in his auction text. That's important. US Law (the "Hobby Protection Act") probably requires the coins to be stamped COPY before import. However, there is no enforcement. Consider saving images of these "collectors copies" so that when you see similar items offered without the warning you can alert the collectors.
My opinion: If a dealer sells a coin that is NOT marked “copy” etc. and he knowingly sells it HE/SHE IS A THIEF. If we run into these individuals it is up to us to out them. Stay Safe Phil
