From what I've read, non-US coins are graded to tougher standards. Krause lists values with fine being the lowest grade listed. (Isn't fine about equal to US coins VF?) Are these pennies pretty much worthless? (I'm thinking they are US Good to Fine, or so.)
Some say that the Europeans use tougher standards, but they don't really. Part of the reason many think that is because the Europeans have no AU grade. It's either Unc or it's XF for them. And they only use adjectival grades, not numerical grades. That said, there are some coins graded as Choice XF in Europe that do receive an MS61 or 62 grade here. That's because we allow cabinet rub and they don't. One place where the US is tougher than the Europeans is in regard to harsh cleaning. Many a coin graded as Unc or XF in Europe would be bagged by the TPG's here because of harsh cleaning. Over there they think nothing of it and here we do. Regarding your grade estimate, I would agree.
Thanks for the explanation GDJMSP. What about the lower end? No grade of Good correct? (And no AG) So it's Fine at the bottom?
Due to the wear on them they are deffinatly at the lower end of the market buthaving said that just have a look on ebay for similar items! you might just be suprised by what some people will pay LOL To compare the prices look on Ebay UK as well as Ebay.com If you are starting off a collection of British coinage then they make a nice start to your penny collection :smile
No, Fine is not the bottom. They use Good and About Good just as we do. But they do not use the numerical variations of the grades. Instead they use additoinal adjectives to describe the range of the various grades. Such as - About Fine Fine Good Fine Choice Fine About VF VF Good VF Choice VF - get the picture ?
As far as grading the British large penny ,I look at the reverse side and check for full spokes on the wheel chair,and full lines between the fingers of the left hand holding the staff.Anything less than that goes into my Sell box.Hope this info helps you . Coinman1
Oh really? Well, maybe the country where I live is not part of Europe then. In every single issue of MünzenRevue there are "market price" lists for various European coins, and for the German circulation coins they list four grades. One of them is "vz-st", and unless the American English terms have been redefined lately, that is pretty much the same as AU. Sometimes you may also see "vz+" (ie. somewhat better than vz) or "st-" (ie. not quite st) but those are not as common as "vz-st". As for cleaning, it depends. In general, cleaning a coin will not affect the grade as it would in the US. But I guess many dealers over here don't add comments such as "stark poliert" to item descriptions just for fun ... Christian
Most old European coins have been cleaned at one time, so I can understand why that wouldn't affect the grade.
That would be the exception to the rule I guess, or perhaps even a recent thing ? Because no European auction catalog I have ever seen has used the term AU or its equivalent. Can't even recall ever seeing it used on Coin Archives either and their source is purley European sellers. Tell me though Christian, is the concept of a slab catching on more over there now ? It started some time ago but acceptance was moving very slowly.
Cannot tell whether this "vz-st" is recent or not; the Gietl magazines (MünzenRevue, Münzen & Sammeln) have been using it for a long time. But as you can tell, it is a combination of two grade descriptions rather than a new term, so I am sure that (at least in German) it is not as old as vz and st themselves. If you perform a search for "vz-st" at http://www.muenzauktion.com , you will get several results in the auctions (and more in the MA shops, separate search). Again, many sellers will still use "vz" (or, more optimistically, "st" ) for a coin that would be AU in English/US use, but others do differentiate. As for commercial grading and slabs, well, that is still kind of exotic here. Most professional dealers in Germany (VDDM members etc.) guarantee the authenticity of the pieces they sell, and buying coins as "commodities" that you may sell again later is not very common here. Then again, if a collector actually needs/wants to sell a coin, it sure is easier to sell if a third party says it is authentic and in this and that grade. If you go to a major coin show in Germany, you may well run into American TPGs now - Eduard just mentioned http://www.cointalk.com/t78116/ the PCGS and NGC booths in Frankfurt. Whether that becomes more common here in the future ... we'll see. I sure do not hope so, as I collect coins, not folders or slabs, but if others think they need it, fine with me. Christian
Just thought I'd ask since there's been a TPG in England for a couple years or more now. Probably won't be long until one pops up on the mainland.
I wouldn't say its tougher or easier, grading is subjective from dealer to dealer. One thing I would say though, is that British grades are more 'honest' sounding. Americans grade coins below fine as 'Very Good' and 'Good', which is frankly, marketing bull stuff. The British 'Fair' or 'Good/Better Fair' is a more accurately descriptive label for a coin in this sort of condition. 'Crap' would be even more accurate, but I suppose some concessions have to be made to the need for dealers to be able to actually sell the coins to customers.....
British system would rank VG-8 to F-12 Mint State Perfect Un-circulated (MS-70) Mint state un-circulated coin in perfect condition, showing no traces of wear, and no blemishes, scratches, handling or contact with other coins. The best quality coin possible. Choice (Gem) Un-circulated (MS-65-69) An above average un-circulated coin which retains all of the original mint brilliance or luster, and has a very few contact marks on the surface or rim, which are barely noticeable. Brilliant Un-circulated or BU (MS-60-64) An un-circulated coin having no traces of wear but which has a few contact marks, surface spotting or lacks some of its original luster. Choice About Un-circulated (AU-55 & 58) A coin having very light wear on only the highest points of the design but no other defects and with most of its luster remaining. About Un-circulated (AU-50) Coin has evidence of light wear on many of the high points but at least half of the mint luster is still present. Extremely Fine (EF-40) The coin design is lightly worn in most places but all the features remain sharp and well defined. Choice Very Fine (VF-30) Light even wear on the surface and highest parts of the design but most major features and the lettering are sharp. Very Fine (VF-20) Minor features such as some of the finer hair detail, feathers, etc. will be moderately worn. Shows moderate wear on high points of design. All major details are clear. Fine (F-12) Moderate to considerable even wear over most features and the lettering. A lot of the details are worn through but you can still see a good deal of the design. Very Good (VG-8) The entire design is weak, but a few details are visible. Well worn throughout but coin rims still visible. Good (G-4) Heavily worn but design and legend still visible although quite weak in spots. Many details are gone. About Good (AG-3) Very heavily worn with portions of lettering,
I'm in the UK, and the grading system works out roughly like this: Unimpaired proof- FDC Impaired proof- aFDC MS-62 to 68 - Uncirculated (Really nice mint state coins are often described as "choice" or "gem", those with full lustre as BU (brilliant uncirculated) AU to MS-61 - NEF/EF/GEF (AU occasionally occurs) XF - VF/GVF VF- GF/NVF F - NF/F VG- Fair Good- About fair AG - Poor Most European grading systems are tiered in a similar way. The only problem which occurs is that many collectors assume that a US XF is equivalent to a UK EF and that , when this is only sometimes true. The coin below, which is graded XF on the US system, would in my opinion grade aVF/VF on the UK system. http://www.rickgross.com/EBAY/1921S_50_Cent_XF_A_Very_Handsome_Coin3.jpg
And this disparity in grading terms between the US and Europe, namely a European VF being equivalent to XF in the US, or European F beeing closer to a VF in the US, is what caused many a savvy U.S collector stationed in Europe in the late 70's, and early 80's to make a killing when buying US coins from Europeans. I once met a GI who was also a US coin dealer stationed in Heidelberg (back in 1986) who used to tell me his best deals came from buying early US coins (large cents, draped and capped bust) from the local population. The sellers would grade them as per German standards, so he would pay them the corresponding price, then turn around and sell them in the US, at the US grade and price. Needless to say, he was sad when he was moved out of Germany....
I can occasionally get US coins for significantly less than the catalogue prices because the dealer grades them on the UK scale but uses US prices =D.
