Mercury Dime--What is the grade?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Lehigh96, Nov 8, 2009.

?

What is the Grade?

  1. MS64

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%

  2. MS64 FB

    7 vote(s)
    12.5%

  3. MS65

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%

  4. MS65 FB

    14 vote(s)
    25.0%

  5. MS66

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%

  6. MS66 FB

    17 vote(s)
    30.4%

  7. MS67

    2 vote(s)
    3.6%

  8. MS67 FB

    7 vote(s)
    12.5%

  9. MS68

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%

  10. MS68 FB

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%
Page 2 of 2
  1. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    I gave it a grade of MS-67 FSB. My thought is that there is enough toning (yes, toning) on the coin to say that it hasn't ever been cleaned which means that this coin exhibits exceptional eye appeal. I am assuming that the striations that physics and cavetroll mention are on the holder and not the coin. This would change the grade drastically. They are not consistent with die polish so if they happen to be on the coin, then I agree with those physics and cavetroll.
     
    mikenoodle, Nov 8, 2009
    #21 + Quote Reply
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I don't think that the areas in question are consistent with counting wheel damage. However, I know very little about the subject and have never even seen it other than on error strike coins which are easily damaged by the counting wheel. From my recollection, counting wheel damage appears as a circular damage inside the rim. Here is a photo of what I am talking about.

    [​IMG]

    I have also seen strange indentations on coins that have been attributed to counting wheel marks. What I have not seen is striations caused by a counting wheel. After examining the coin with a 10X loupe I can definitively say the the right field is die polish. The striations across the cap and neck are very symmetrical and can't be cause by a wipe of a cloth. I guess it could be possible that such light damage could be caused by something mechanical but I still don't buy it. I did find a coin in Heritage's site that has similar characteristics to my coin.

    http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=422&Lot_No=2751#photo

    Regardless, I doubt that whatever it is will keep it from grading. It might knock it down a few grades, essentially net grading the coin, but I don't think it will actually be net graded on the holder.

    And we are never going to find out unless a wager is made. I am not sending this coin which is not valuable enough to have graded, even in MS67 FB, just to prove a point. However, if one of the counting wheel guys promises to pay the submission (including S&H) costs if the coin grades, then I will send it in.
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 8, 2009
    #22 + Quote Reply
  4. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Well, you have it in hand so you can say better what it actually looks like. I just know that I've seen marks which appear similar to yours described as counting wheel damage. I have also seen marks like the other Merc you posted described as such, so.... I have to admit I don't know everything on this topic. ;)

    Tell ya what, start a thread on NGC and see what people have to say over there.
     
    physics-fan3.14, Nov 9, 2009
    #23 + Quote Reply
  5. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    67fb -- but it really depends on the luster.
     
    Leadfoot, Nov 9, 2009
    #24 + Quote Reply
  6. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    I gave it a 64 FB. Dimes can be very nicely preserved & I thought that this one just missed 65. If it is really flashy in hand, then I would change to 65 FB.
     
    Collect89, Nov 9, 2009
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I just re-imaged my raw Mercury Dimes. Here are the new photos of this coin and the later dates.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I still don't think it is counting wheel damage.
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 25, 2010
    #26 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Again terminology, and its misuse by people, thus creating misunderstanding, raises its ugly head.

    What you are describing Paul, and this will probably cause even more disagreement, is more correctly called rolling machine damage.


    Let's not forget the coin you are using as an example is broadstruck. That is the source of the marks inside the rim on this coin. The counting machine damage are the horizontal lines.

    IMO, part of the problem is that die polish lines provide a convenient excuse for what are not always die polish lines. How many times in various discussions over the years have I argued that what people are calling die polish lines - are not die polish lines ?

    To really understand the issue you first have to understand how dies are polished. And the method for polishing a die dictates what can be die polish lines and what cannot.

    Dies are polished on a flat, spinning zinc disk. The face of the die is held flat against the disk. And since the highest points on a die are the fields, it is only the fields that touch the disk.

    Now it has been argued many times that die polish lines can be in multiple directions. OK, please explain to me how that is possible. You have a flat spinning disk that is abrasive. It is very fine abrasive but abrasive all the same. And that is what polishes the die. Then you have a flat die face being held against the spinning disk. This will create lines that run in one direction and one direction only. Yes, the lines will be an arc, but it will be an arc that is so shallow that the lines appear to the eye to be straight lines all running in the same direction. They can do nothing else.

    And even if the die is picked up from the disk, examined to see if the polishing is finished or if it needs to be polished some more, and then placed back against the disk for additional polishing, but the die is not held in exactly the same postion - you will still see only lines running in one direction. This is because all previous polish lines are obliterated by the final polishing.

    Conclusion - if you see lines running in multiple directions on a coin, they are not all die polish lines for they cannot be. The group of lines that are the deepest will be flow lines that were etched into the face of the die that were not polished out.

    This is the only way that you can have these lines in multiple directions on a coin.

    And yeah, I already know, everybody is going to tell me I'm wrong again :rolleyes:

    Now on your coin Paul, it is the location of the lines, and that fact that they exist in such a narrow space, that dictate that they cannot be die polish lines. For how can a die be held against a flat spinning disk in such a manner as to create such a narrow band of lines ? Answer - it can't be. So the lines must be due to something else. And since the lines also intersect and cross the devices, they can only have been formed after the coin was struck.

    Now imagine a wheel or a roller crossing a coin as it is counted in a machine. The lines would necessarily be straight lines. And they would only occur where the wheel touched the coin. Thus the conclusion that the lines on your coin were caused a counting machine.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 25, 2010
    #27 + Quote Reply
  9. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    I think it might still grade. This is a high MS FB.

    You must have gotten a new 39-D. That is gorgeous!
     
    Vess1, Apr 25, 2010
    #28 + Quote Reply
  10. Breakdown

    Breakdown Member

    It's harder to see the lines on the new photo, whether it's counting wheel or die polish, making me think it all the more likely the coin would slab.
    Mercury (or Winged Liberty or whatever her name) seems to have developed a new spot on her cheek.
    I still like the coin.
    Doug, whether or not you're correct about this being a counting wheel, your post has excellent information.
     
    Breakdown, Apr 25, 2010
    #29 + Quote Reply
  11. dimeguy

    dimeguy Dime Enthusiast

    Ok, I'll admit I'm sure I'm not as qualified as most posting on this thread but here are my thoughts, and I'll read everyone else's afterwards and hopefully I'll be on the right track.

    I graded it a MS64FB. Reason?

    Obverse: That area between the T and Y in Liberty drew my eye. The spot under the T in Trust. Then, I'm not sure if I'm just hallucinating or not, but I'm seeing odd looking lines neck area directly left of the lower hair line.

    Reverse: I'm not sure the standards you wish to use for FSB, but I like to see all the horizontals split. Unless I missed something this seems to be the case on your coin. Again, not sure if my eye is playing a trick, or if it's the lighting, but the light/luster seems awkward from the field to the right of the olive branch directly across the E in America (hope that made sense) and goes in a semicircular fashion down to the first U in Pluribus. Finally, again, maybe I'm being too picky but I think the vertical sticks are nice, but could be more defined.

    For those reasons, I think it ranked just shy of MS65, but evidently from the poll, it looks like I may be off a grade or two. Now to read on...
     
    dimeguy, Apr 25, 2010
    #30 + Quote Reply
  12. dimeguy

    dimeguy Dime Enthusiast

    Shoot, totally missed the back of the cap area for the marks. Found the ones on the neck, even if I didn't know what caused it, so I guess that gives me half credit? Am I the only one seeing something on the reverse to the right of the right olive branch? Maybe so...oh well. Thanks for clarifying what the marks are from...off to do a little research to understand the process a bit more. Still a great coin overall, Lehigh96.

     
    dimeguy, Apr 25, 2010
    #31 + Quote Reply
  13. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

    I like em!!!! - nice pics.
     
    sunflower, Apr 25, 2010
    #32 + Quote Reply
  14. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Here is what David Lange says about the 1940-S in his book THE COMPLETE GUIDE TO MERCURY DIMES.

    "One may speculate that the reason for such overpolishing of the dies is to be found in the frequency of deep clash marks. The only way to remove these flaws is to abrade the die faces until enough metal has been lifted that the surfaces are again smooth. This effect, while it diminishes low relief elements such as the designer's monogram and the motto IN GOD WE TRUST, can often add greatly to a coin's beauty. Unless done with care, however, the result of this operation will be heavy, irregular polishing lines which impair the luster of coins struck from such dies. All of these problems, whether found singly or collectively, are characteristic of 1940-S dimes.

    Now I understand that we are not going to settle this debate unless I have the coin graded, but I have seen many Mercury Dimes with an appearance similar to this coin. The expert above has explained how common the die polishing effect is on Mercury Dimes, specifically on the 1940-S. If you guys want to believe that it is caused by something obscure like counting wheel damage, then be my guest. Here is a link to another 1940-S Mercury Dime that has a similar appearance to my coin albeit a higher grade.

    Heritage 1940-S Mercury Dime
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 25, 2010
    #33 + Quote Reply
  15. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    that 39S is a stunner
     
    Dimefreak, Apr 25, 2010
    #34 + Quote Reply
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Do you mean 1939-D? I don't have a 39-s!

    [​IMG]
     
    Lehigh96, Apr 25, 2010
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    yea that thing is nice. guessing its not going anywhere?:D
     
    Dimefreak, Apr 26, 2010
    #36 + Quote Reply
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes Paul, the coin is known for showing die polish marks. But please show me on the coin you linked to, or another if you wish, that has the marks continue across the back of the cap, the ear piece of the helmet and out onto the cheek; and across the neck.

    These lines being on the devices is what sets your coin apart and indicates that they are not die polish lines. You just don't get die polish lines on the devices.

    For whatever it is worth, I believe the odds are about 8 to 5 the coin would slab, doubt higher than 65 FB. But whoever dipped it, should have left it alone. The toning would have covered those marks.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 26, 2010
    #37 + Quote Reply
  19. Mark T

    Mark T Junior Member

    Leigh – I thought your coin was a lock for MS 66 FB. After reading Jason and Doug’s comments on the coin counting wheel I took another look at your coin . In the first picture I can see something that appears suspicious but I can not see the same on the second picture. I would have had no idea there was an issue with this coin if it was not brought up . Get it graded .
     
    Mark T, Apr 26, 2010
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. snaz

    snaz Registry fever

    What I find great about grading, is that it always comes down to a persons opinion.
    Example:
    The poll shows 2 people went MS64, and one person went MS68 FB
    Incredible, we're all over the place on this one. Paul, I was going to vote but my MS69 FB option wasn't there. :p

    But seriously, nice coin, and I'll cast a vote for MS65
    EDIT TO ADD:
    I WENT TO VOTE MS65 AND APPARENTLY I ALREADY VOTED, MS65FB WHENEVER THIS THREAD WAS FIRST OPENED. :)
     
    snaz, Apr 26, 2010
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    The thread was started last year and the coin is a raw coin.
     
    rlm's cents, Apr 26, 2010
    #40 + Quote Reply
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