Retiring from SemiKey/Key Date Coins after next month..

I specifically said they shouldn't rely on slabs to learn how to grade in the post you quoted:

But, coin collecting is a hobby full of people who will rip of the uniformed. It is very easy to overgrade a raw coin and sell it to a newer collector. There is a huge finical risk here...it doesn't exist with slabbed coins. I would never tell someone to buy a coin based on the slab, but buying a slabbed coin isn't bad either. Slabbed coins remove a very large chunk of the finical risk from buying higher dollar coins which IMHO is something very important for newer collectors.

As far as learning to grade, I recommend the ANA book to anyone who asks me...and this is a different grading system than those used by the TPGs.

 

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If you're refering to the ANA grading standards, it is pretty horrible once it gets to the MS grades. Besides, how are the newbs supposed to grade if they just stick with slab coins.

As Miss Sasha said: "Is a collector going to learn how to grade if they rely on slabbed coins?"



stainless

 

No offense BNB, but I never saw you as being involved in this hobby. You're a sworn investor and as such none of my "collecting" advice should even matter to you. That's why I've never commented on your posts (and never had a chance to disagree). Good luck with investing and whatever else you attempt.

PS - If all else fails, you can still post some videos on youtube!

 

I never said they should "stick" with slabbed coins. What I said was...slabbed coins are less of a finical risk for higher dollar purchases when someone doesn't have experience. They shouldn't "learn to grade" with them, but there is no valid argument that says they aren't a good way to minimize the finical risk. I'm not comfortable recommending a new collector buy only raw coins so they learn how to grade, that's how many of us ended up "paying for our education" by buying damaged coins and overgraded coins.

 

But their IS a valid argument. We have a newb that you advise to only buy slabbed coins to start with (until they learn how to grade). Now, hopefully you mention which ones. You will probably mention PCGS and NGC, which are both victims of counterfeit slabs.


stainless

 

OK...yes, there are counterfeit slabs...but there are also counterfeit coins. I NEVER said it was a good idea to rely completely on slabs, but for expensive purchases by someone who has little experience...do you think buying raw or slabbed is a better idea? I hope the answer is clear, slabbed coins are a safer way to go.

I think that most people around here feel that slabs are "evil" and that's a fine opinion. But, I don't think slabs are the reason there isn't peace on earth. They have a place in this hobby IMHO.

 

I guess in a way you are correct, it gives the buyer some relief (perhaps too much). But you are speaking for the US and modern World market only. It doesn't work this way for what I collect and it is actually safer to have raw coins over graded, becuase ICG does not know what they are doing (haven't really seen much from NGC yet).


However, how would one detect a counterfeit coin in a slab (it can happen)? Wouldn't you agree it would be harder to detect?


stainless

 

As for ancients, that is beyond the scope of my collecting so I would have to yield to you here. I have no doubt you are correct.

With counterfeit slabs, sometimes they are obvious and others they are not...just like coins. I have seen some counterfeit coins that look great. I think people don't look as closely at the slab, which is why it is a risk. But, the problem is much more common when it comes to coins. But, it goes back to knowledge. You must know what you are collecting. Slabs do offer some security, but it's not an end all.

 

I think we might be getting a little off topic, but anyway, I just want to say thank you to all of you(you know who you are) for being the friends that you've been to me on Coin Talk.

I may not know every little detail about every coin, but I know enough at this point to have table talk.

Most importantly, I'm happy after this 3 month intensive coin purchasing / learning experience.

Today I feel is phase 3 of the cold and I think I should be over it by mid afternoon. Thank god!

 

I think that books have a much more valuable place in our hobby

 

I sure am glad to read all of this, I think I will go buy a "Key" or "Semi".
WOW..

 

Huh? You lost me with that statement.

 

I never advocated relying on TPG grades as an absolute. However, relying on a the opinion of a professional grader until you have the requisite knowledge and confidence to apply that knowledge is IMO, prudent advice. Collectors (except type collectors) should not use the TPG grades as an excuse to not learn how to grade, instead they should use the experience gained by viewing hundreds/thousands of graded coins to help them learn how to grade.

You seem to think that the TPG's change their standards like they are clothing. Minor shifts in standards occur over very long periods of time and the overall performance, accuracy, and consistency of both NGC & PCGS is much higher than that of the average collector. The pitfall is that collectors don't recognize their own limitations and routinely overestimate their own knowledge and expertise.

The advice that I am providing is advice that I follow. In your last paragraph, you are saying that I have zero interest in coin collecting, zero knowledge, and zero ambition to learn anything. Do you really think that is true? I think my reputation, knowledge, and passion evidenced by my participation on this forum over the last 2 years proves it to be untrue.

 

I really do think a collector can learn to grade by relying on slabbed coins. In fact, I think it's a great way to learn to grade if you can afford it. In building my 1908-S Indian Head Cent grading set (link in my signature), I definitely improved my ability to grade Indian Head Cents, and especially learned to grade based on the current standards being used by PCGS.

I started my 1908-S IHC grading set because I wanted to learn how to grade indian cents better before I started to work on a collection of that series. I bought the books first and I also read Rick Snow's grading guide and learned some of the ins and outs of grading the series for sure. But I think I learned even more in buying the certified coins and in part relying on the slabbed grades as an independent check on my own developing grading skill. I really think it's much easier to learn to grade with physical examples of each grade in your hand than to learn based on descriptions and photos in print.

In fact, I'm not sure what better methods of learning to grade exist. You could buy a few books (which will each use varying standards which may or may not be outdated) and then buy a pile of cents and try to grade them yourself based on what you've read. But once you come to the grade you think is correct, how do you know if you're correct??? In buying slabbed coins, after I look at the coin and grade it based on what I've learned and read, I can then look at the grade assigned to that coin by at least 3 expert coin graders who have certified the coin.

True, it may be a pitfall to rely on the slabbed grades exclusively as they do get it wrong occasionally, but I still think it's a pretty good way to start out learning a series since you have some insurance built into the slab that keeps the coin marketable and will help to prevent the buyer from big losses when they sell vs. buying uncertified coins they don't know how to grade. Additionally, I didn't just buy one example of each grade when I was building my 1908-S grading set, I bought 2-5 examples of each grade, studied them against what I read in the books, and then kept the example I thought was best representative of the grade.

I'm sure that was most a bunch of rambling because I've been writing this at work between meetings and phone calls, but overall I don't think slabbed coins should be dismissed as a tool to teach someone to grade. Unfortunately, it costs a lot more to do it that way than to study the books.

 

With all due respect, I don't think that it is a fine opinion to view slabs as "evil". None of the slab haters has ever given me a legitmate reason to support their opposition of the TPG's. From my experience, most of the collectors that think slabs are evil don't collect high value coins. If it was their own money at risk, I wonder if their opinion would change!

 

Lehigh, I think that I have enough of a track record here as to how I feel about TPGs, where do I fall on your continuum?

I am purely curious and not taking any of this personally. I think it's a great discussion! LOL

I would also add that I think that you internalized misssasha's comments. IMHO she was talking about a type of collector not anyone here in particular.

 

Mike,

I don't recall you position on TPG's. What I will say is that most opinions I see on the subject are based on emotions and not prudence.

Regarding misssasha's comments, I just wanted to show her the danger of making such a sweeping stereotypical statement.

It is certainly possible to enjoy the hobby of coin collecting by roll searching and collecting circulating coinage with little or no monetary investment. These collectors have the luxury of dismissing the TPG's as an unnecessary evil in numismatics. However, when this transcends indifference and turns into something more critical, I have a problem. To allude that all collectors who buy investment quality certified coins are not being true to the hobby and are lacking in knowledge is ludicrous. IMO, the only people who really have the right to make that claim are those that buy investment quality certified coins and crack them out of their holders. And even though they have the right, they are still wrong. If you are a collector who buys a $5K coin, you have made an investment even if that was not your intention/motive for buying the coin. It is only prudent to protect this investment by having the coin certified with a guarantee of authenticity, grade, and phyiscal protection offered by the holder.

 

What about relying on properly graded top notch (PCGS, NGC) slabs looking at lots of these to get a feel for why they are graded that why? Why not ask questions to a dealer who knows a paticular field better and ask why they were graded that way. I feel looking at lots of slabbed coins in a series by PCGS and NGC could help your grading.

 

The reality of the situation is the TPG grading standard (whether you agree with their standards and nuances or not) has become the standard upon which coins are bought and sold in the market place.

 

I think that jab was intended for someone else Paul.....