Another burglary . . . this time it was Barry Stuppler's shop.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ToughCOINS, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    I honestly don't know the legal answer to your question firsthand, although I know what seems fair, and I've been on both sides of that situation myself.

    I once bought stolen coins from a newspaper delivery boy (and his friend) in the 1980's who explained that he had accumulated the coins over a few years. It seemed plausible to me, as it was a modest amount of modern coinage, mostly Ikes, Kennedys, 90% silver and a few Canadian coins. I had resold the coins by the time the police contacted me, and did my best to reconstitute the lost coins for the rightful owner, although I was never told that I had to do so. It just seemed the right thing to do. The paperboy bought those coins from me and gave them to the victim, who seemed satisfied. I think those kids got a simple slap on the wrist.

    On the flipside, I suffered a much larger loss 12 years ago, and have been told by a specialist in numismatic law (name forgotten) that one cannot force an unwitting buyer to return a stolen coin, however police can impound it as evidence during prosecution / trial, and one can legally enjoin the current holder of stolen coin against ever selling it.

    While I have never seen a single one of those coins in those 12 years, I still sometimes search for them (photographically documented details of strike, and size, location & orientation of marks are like fingerprints), but do not know what I could do to recover the loss, if anything.
     
    Beefer518 likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    There should be 1 major website where you can look up to see if the coin you are considering buying (dealer or customer) has been reported as stolen.
     
    cplradar likes this.
  4. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  5. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    Hi

    I already quoted the exact statute that requires stolen property to be returned to the original owner, and I know this to be the case both as a matter of law and as a matter of international treaty. There is no left or right on this. However, you can't just seize it. You need to go to court and have the sheriff get it for you upon the court order. And the law for antiquities and cultural items (such as coins) is MORE strict than ordinary property because of the WWII experience in stolen art. Stolen property legally remains the property of the owner and commerce with it is illegal. as far as the law is concerned, there is no sale when you purchase stolen property.

    It doesn't help when the cops drag their feet and the hobby/industry doesn't cooperate. And they do not cooperate. They collaborate in the stolen coin market. They stall, hide the records, feign ignorance, and will only comply with the minimal efforts necessary under warrants and court orders. They do NOT open there records.
     
  6. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    Three points on this:

    First, this is not the issue. How one can secure a business or a home is irrelevant to this topic. If you want to really have a discussion about how one can go about making a business or a home more secure, you should start another thread on that topic.

    Secondly, people who have coins stolen are the victims and not the perpetrators of crime. And they are blameless when someone else does a wontingly immoral act.

    Thirdly, dealing in stolen goods and being laxed in the matter of commerce with stolen goods is ANOTHER crime.

    What is relevant is that far too many coins are stolen and there is a mounting number of victims. And a laxed attitude about stolen coins in the market (not to mention stolen property), is fueling the crime. In fact, it is the primary cause for these crimes. It is just too easy to steal coins and then dump them on the market.
     
  7. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    Even without a slab, a centalized database would make it quick and easy to essentially end dump stolen coins on ebay and the like.
     
  8. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Helter-Smelter, buyer beware...
     
  9. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Rare coins yes . . . common coins . . . not a chance!
     
  10. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer A Caretaker, can't take it with me

    Correct, the person whose coins are stolen is the victim. However, they can be blameless, or they can be totally to blame. If you don't take all necessary precautions to secure your property, you are at fault through negligence.
     
    John Burgess likes this.
  11. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    I just recalled the name . . . Armenian Vartian.

    http://www.vartianlaw.com/about.html

    I suspect he can help you work through any misconceptions you may have.
     
    cplradar likes this.
  12. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    modern figerprinting with AI.
     
  13. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    :)

    Hi

    I work with a MAJOR metropolitian museum and do a LOT of work with stolen at and I have their lawyers at my disposal. Without a doubt, the title of stolen property can not be transfered for coins.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2315
    for starters.

    https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/stolen-goods-markets-0

    https://www.fsp-law.com/buying-stolen-property-some-cautionary-tales/

    https://www.interpol.int/Crimes/Cultural-heritage-crime/Stolen-Works-of-Art-Database

    https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/06/returning_stolen_artwork.html

    https://ifar.org/stolen_art_alert.php

    You shouldn't think for a minute that if you buy a stolen item that you own it.
     
    Santinidollar and John Burgess like this.
  14. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum

  15. cplradar

    cplradar Talmud Chuchum


    I don't see any reason why not. Facial recognition is much harder than coins, and most people have that built into their cellphones now. Every coin can be finger printed.
     
  16. capthank

    capthank Well-Known Member

    Solution is both. Safe and identification.
     
  17. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator


    I never wrote that title is transferred . . . I wrote that you can't make the holder of the coin give it back. All you can do is prevent him / her from selling it because they don't hold title to it.
     
  18. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    You should think more about what you write before you write it.

    eBay does not require sellers to provide good photos that could be used to match against a database. Even if they did, lighting intensity, lighting angle, camera angle contribute variables that cannot be adequately accounted for.

    it is impractical to police common coins because there are so many of them to be checked. Imagine looking for a gem BU MS65 1880-S Morgan Dollar on eBay . . . right now, searching with "1880-S (gem bu, gem unc, MS65, MS64, MS66)", I find only 982 coins so described. Good luck with that!

    As concerns fingerprinting coins and maintaining such records for future reference and retrieval, exactly who do you think will bear the cost of doing that?

    With regard to legitimately rare coins, photo-shopping could erase marks, or coins could simply be listed out of focus.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
    Marsden likes this.
  19. John Burgess

    John Burgess Well-Known Member

    I never suggested this person wasn't a victim, or that they deserved someone stealing from them. HOWEVER people stealing other people's stuff was written about in the bible, it's not ending anytime soon, so either prepare for the worst case, or roll the dice I suppose.

    I looked up the address for this company, it comes back as inside a big office building with a union bank on the first floor. This is "Mint State Gold" right?
    I wonder if they robbed the bank too while they were at it, I bet not.

    people steal things from other people all the time. I myself have had firearms shoved in my face at 3 different times in my teen years by "robbers" before I figured out to stop being the victim and be proactive instead of reactive. it's just too easy to steal anything when there's almost no security to prevent it from happening or you "look" like a good target. the easier you look as a target, the more likely they are to feel froggy and jump because that's what they are, bottom feeders.

    As far as the part of the discussion here about buying stolen property, if you KNOWINGLY bought stolen property it's criminal you can be charged.
    However if you UNKNOWINGLY bought stolen property you likely won't get charged for it, but you will have to return it to the rightful owner of it. Your only recourse would be to go after the person that sold it to you and file for restitution against said criminal to get your money back from that person.
    If you do not agree to return the item after being notified that it is stolen, then at that point you can be prosecuted as it makes you a thief and knowing you have stolen goods on your hands.
     
    cplradar and masterswimmer like this.
  20. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Just ask the family that had the 1933 gold double Eagles.
     
  21. Phil's Coins

    Phil's Coins Well-Known Member

    It is not mentioned - BUT did the victim have his collection in a safe? If not, WHY. Did the victim have insurance on his business? Again, if not, WHY.
    It is a shame he lost his coins and we all can learn from this: IF YOU HAVE A COLLECTION YOU HAVE WORKED YOUR ASS OFF FOR, I HOPE YOU HAVE IT INSURED AND IN A SAFE OR SAFETY DEPOSIT BOX. If not you are asking for headaches.
    Semper Fi
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page