Netherlands - Gorinchem. Rose Noble, ND (1583-91).

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by silvereagle82, Oct 31, 2009.

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  1. silvereagle82

    silvereagle82 World Gold Collector

    A new addition to my collection:

    Netherlands - Gorinchem.
    Rose Noble ND (1583-91).
    NGC MS-62
    A Rare coin (in the truest sense in both quantity and condition - Delmonte 825bis @ rarity scale -R4 (highest rating))
    It's also a large coin = 36mm

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    silvereagle82, Oct 31, 2009
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  3. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Silvereagle82, that is a very beautiful coin! I must congratulate you.

    I am interested to learn more about this issue, and how they compare both in rarity and design to the originals (if one may call them that) English issues of Edward IV.

    My regards,

    Eduard
     
    Eduard, Oct 31, 2009
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  4. Zohar444

    Zohar444 Member

    It does not get much better than this. Congrats!
     
    Zohar444, Oct 31, 2009
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  5. Art

    Art Numismatist?

    Absolutely beautiful. Congratulations.
     
    Art, Oct 31, 2009
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  6. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye

    I find it intriguing that the knockoffs of the English nobles were made often times almost a hundred years after they were minted in England. But certainly the knockoffs are much scarcer than their English inspiration. I myself have one of the Scottish Eleven Merks from James VI that was inspired by the English Nobles.
     
    scottishmoney, Oct 31, 2009
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  7. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    I was going to ask what the melt value was :smile but let me just say that that is about the nicest world coin I have ever seen. Thanks for posting it.

    You say it is 36m diameter. I'll bet it looks impressive in the slab. Do you have a photo of the whole slab?

    Very best regards,
    collect89
     
    Collect89, Oct 31, 2009
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  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Oddly enough, the English Noble was copied from an even older coin of the Netherlands. So the Netherlands Noble is a copy of a copy that was theirs to begin with. Such are the vagaries of history.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 1, 2009
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  9. scottishmoney

    scottishmoney Buh bye


    Which was a trait that goes back to the Greeks, they copied each others coins and copied revisions back and forth.

    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    At least in this case the Dutch had the last laugh, with the Scots their near.
     
    scottishmoney, Nov 1, 2009
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  10. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    silvereagle82, if you allow, here is my Gorinchem Rose Noble.
    You can appreciate it is not in terribly good condtion, but it is all there.

    I posted this coin here a few years back looking for an I.D, as I thought it was an english issue. Doug identified it back then as Gorinchem.

    I would really appreciate it if you would confirm the variety according to Delmonte.

    With regards,

    Eduard
     

    Attached Files:

    Eduard, Nov 1, 2009
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  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Eduard - I'm the one who told Conrad (silvereagle) about Delmonte and taught him how to use the book. I also attributed his coin for him before he ever bid on it.

    The attribution is all in the legends, there is no mistaking it.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 1, 2009
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  12. De Orc

    De Orc Well-Known Member

    They are both simply lovely, the workmanship that has gone into them is astounding when you compare them to some items that are offerd today!
     
    De Orc, Nov 1, 2009
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  13. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Hi Doug, what I was enquiring about is Conrad (or you) could confirm the Gorinchem variety of MY coin.
    You identified mine as Gorinchem as well. But, as I understand it, there are several varieties of Gorinchem Nobles (how many?), and I wanted confirmation of which one is mine. Seems to be the same as Conrad's but, I wanted to be sure.

    Thanks to you Conrad and Doug (and sorry for barging in - not my intention)

    Eduard
     
    Eduard, Nov 1, 2009
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Eduard you're not barging in at all. I remember your coin quite well, and yes, it is the same variety as Conrads. That's specifically why I remember it, because it is so rare. And because you found the dang thing in the forest as I recall !

    I'll double check when I get home, but as I recall Delmonte mentions 2 examples known. 1 is in a museum I believe, I used to own the other. Your coin made the 3rd example I was aware of, and now Conrad's is the 4th. And no 2 of them are the same coin.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 1, 2009
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  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Eduard -

    There are 3 varieties for Gorinchem Rose Noble. The most common of these is what is known as the Flemish Noble - Delmonte 825ter. To look at them you would think that they are English Nobles as they have the same legends. But these are easily distinguished by having a larger flan and the quality of workmanship is lacking. These are rated as R1 coins.

    The next is also an R4 coin - Delmonte 825, and it is distinguished by its obv legend - EDWARD D G REG ANG M DNI AR A V DNS I D ( Edward dei gratia, rex angliae, moneta domini Arkelensis ad valorem Edwardi domini Iberniae). They are also known as the Arkel imitations. One known example is in the La Haye collection.

    Your coin is the 3rd variety, an R4 - Delmonte 825bis. It has a variance in the obv legend - EDWARD DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRAN DNS IB. One example is in the British Museum, I sold mine (whereabouts unknown at this time but I believe it was sold by Louis Teller in a private sale in 2007), your example, and now Conrad's.

    Now a Delmonte R4 means there are 2 or 3 examples known to exist. We now know of 4, 3 of which were or are owned by members of this forum.

    So as you can see Eduard, the legends on your coin confirm the variety.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 1, 2009
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  16. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**


    Doug, I thank you immensely for this information.

    I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN: WHEN IT COMES TO SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE, YOU ARE ONE OF THE BEST!

    With regards,

    Eduard
     
    Eduard, Nov 2, 2009
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  17. Luis

    Luis Senior Member

    That is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen! Congratulations!

    Maybe someone should e-mail Delmonte and ask him to switch it to R3 now :D
     
    Luis, Nov 6, 2009
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  18. covert coins

    covert coins Coin Hoarder

    Nice coin I really like it. Thanks for sharing with us
     
    covert coins, Nov 6, 2009
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  19. england

    england New Member


    Hi everyone,
    I am new to this forum as I have recently found a Edward IV gold ryal which I think may be one of these flemish copies.

    2166-1.jpg



    Can any please help by telling me what I am looking at? From what I can make out ( I know the coin is not in great condition!), It appears to have a variance in the obv legend - EDWARD DI GRA REX ANGL Z FRAN DNS IB.

    What is also perplexing is that all the examples of Ryals that I can find have more than one wave (wavy line) underneath the rose and this coin only has a single wave line. Is this perhaps just a common variation or do you think this may have some meaning?

    [​IMG]
     
    england, Sep 19, 2012
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  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    england - your picture did not post for some reason, please try again
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 20, 2012
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  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    england, after studying your pictures I do not believe yours is a genuine coin. There are too many differences between the designs of yours and all other genuine examples I know of. I used to own one of them, know of 7 that exist, and have seen pictures of all but one of those. And your coin is completely different while all 7 of the others are basically the same. Sorry to say that your coin has the look of a cast fake as well.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 20, 2012
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